two reyes limit

by lboros on Mar 20, 2006 8:30 AM EST in News Comment 34 comments

here's the cliff-notes version of joe strauss' article in this morning's post:

ponson has won the "competition" for the 5th starter job (as we first heard from bernie last week)
wainwright is slated to make one more start, after which he may or may not get added to the mix for the bullpen
reyes will be optioned to memphis after starting today --
-- and the start might be "for the benefit of other clubs as much as for the Cardinals."

trading reyes seems counterproductive from a payroll standpoint -- his departure would leave the cards with four holes in the rotation next year and only one affordable option (wainwright) available to fill any of them. but you increasingly get the sense that the cards are ready to move on. beginning with the ponson signing, every word and gesture has nudged reyes closer to the exit. has anyone read a single quote this spring such as "anthony threw the ball well today" or "he's coming along"? i guess you could say he hasn't thrown it partic'y well; you could say that ponson has beaten reyes on the merits. he has had the better spring. what's missing is any sense that the organization is committed to reyes long term. every indicator suggests the opposite. if that's the case, it would make sense to trade him now while his stock is still high; nothing like a lousy april at memphis to wreck a guy's value.

moving wainwright to the bullpen seems a logical move; might mitigate the loss of the other reyes, ie al. the leading contenders to fill that set-up-the-setup-man role are currently bryan falkenborg and josh hancock, according to both the official site and the post. it's not looking particularly good for jeff nelson. the post story quotes duncan as saying the club is looking to fill reyes' slot with "a guy who can strike somebody out," while the cards dot com article had this from la russa: "The competition around [Nelson] has gotten stiff. There are several guys who are throwing the ball well. It's not like he's not facing competition. . . . there's not a lot of room to maneuver there for Jeff. He's going to have to be as impressive as he can be."

nice knowing ya, kid.

speaking of al reyes, in case you missed it -- and you prob'y did, since it has barely made a ripple in the press -- he signed a minor-league deal with the devil rays; thanks acr for posting that bit of news. reyes to rays; how did those headline writers resist. the rays' official site characterizes him as being at the tail end of his rehab program, but the associated press report (via rotoworld) says he's out for the year. tampa prob'y hopes he'll pitch enough this season to be showcased as late-season trade bait. best of luck to mr reyes.

another rehabbing pitcher, once considered likely to become reyes' heir apparent, is getting glowing reviews per ken rosenthal:

Reliever Felix Rodriguez, who missed more than two months last season after undergoing surgery on his left knee, has emerged as the surprise of Nationals' camp, throwing 94 to 96 mph and looking like the pitcher he used to be with the Giants. Rodriguez would give the Nationals another formidable late-inning option to go with Luis Ayala, Gary Majewski and Chad Cordero.

washington got him on a $600K deal that escalates to $1.2m if he stays on the 40-man roster throughout the year.

then there's that other would-be stl mound signee, whose elbow owwie is being attributed to scar tissue. the toronto star says blue jay brass were "scared out of their wits" by burnett's abrupt departure from saturday's game; i can't imagine their wits are resting all that easy yet, despite aj's clean MRI. for the moment they're putting a happy face on things, but this sounds ripe for one of those "ummm . . . it's worse than we thought" announcements a week or two down the road. a best case at this point is that burnett only misses his first turn in the rotation.

how are the blue jay fans dealing with it? how do you think? on the other hand, this could be a field day for the told-you-so camp in cardinal nation -- and if burnett comes up lame, they'll be entitled.

back this afternoon with results of the astros community projection.

0 recs | Comment 34 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Al Reyes?

Ok, I had no idea we had let him go. Dunno how I missed that.

by sdrone on Mar 20, 2006 10:56 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Anthony Reyes

So, what teams do we think are interested in him, and what would the Cards get in return?

I'm guessing the Cards are looking for a corner outfielder ...

matty fred is a web log.

by matty fred on Mar 20, 2006 11:11 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Nah, give us

a washed up veteran pitcher to resurrect!

by sdrone on Mar 20, 2006 11:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

LOL!

matty fred is a web log.

by matty fred on Mar 20, 2006 1:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

A guy who can strike somebody out...

I realize that starting pitching prospects of the caliber of Reyes are few and far between (especially for the Cardinals). Still, I have a proposal that may or may not be silly. I leave that judgment to those who read it.

Why not move Anthony Reyes to the 'pen? He has a long history of arm troubles and it seems that if he is only being asked to repeat his arm action 20 to 30 times a game, this would cut down on his wear and tear. I realize that Tony likes to use his relievers in a high number of games, but if he were smart with Reyes, might we have a swing-and-miss guy setting up and, possibly, the aire apparent to Izzy?

In the eighth inning, throwing high 94 mph heat is what you want. He could get rid of the two-seamer and just do what he has done his whole career, except, hopefully without chronic arm troubles.

Or, does he have more value to us in a trade?

by bgh on Mar 20, 2006 11:36 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

i think that idea

has quite a bit of merit. look no further than our current closer, who began his career as a much-heralded rotation prospect.

but i'd hate to see them make that move before they've even given him a chance to sink or swim as a starter

by lboros on Mar 20, 2006 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

lboros I desperately hope you are wrong

from an pitching standpoint it doesn't make sense to trade him from any viewpoint I can see. Regardless of who we get back in a trade I just can't see it being worth it (short of an allstar caliber player) not because Reyes is a future Cy Young winner but because the premium on starting pitching is so outrageous right now that tossing away someone who for league minimium is at least a number 3-4 pitcher if not more like a number 2 pitcher is simply foolish.

I hope for Burnett as a person that he is ok. But as a fan of the Cardinals, I hope he comes up lame and drives down the price of pitching and convinces them that 4 year contracts are not the best of ideas. I don't like investing that much money in a injury prone player, regardless of "upside" when they haven't shown they can play at a consistently above average level w/o injuries.

Just my two cents worth...

by azruavatar on Mar 20, 2006 12:11 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

What if the target is an allstar caliber player?

Suppose the trade is something like Reyes and Suppan/Marquis for Bobby Abreu and a lot of cash?

Or what if he is included in a Zito deal? I still don't think he's getting traded. Why would they not be talking up their trade bait?

by Valatan on Mar 20, 2006 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

If it's a power hitter

throw in J'Encarnacion plz. Let's try the cheap guys. I'm still very curious to see Bigbie's defense.

by sdrone on Mar 20, 2006 1:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Keeping An. Reyes

I'm still sticking by the notion that they are sending him to AAA to work on his two seamer and working under the assumption that it will be highly unlikely all five starters remain healthy throughout the year. Thus, Reyes still gets substantial ML experience to flush out the rotation next year.

This is not wishful thinking, it is common sense. As lboros points out, next year's payroll will demand it.

by planet pujolsian on Mar 20, 2006 12:13 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Unless....

the Cards are planning a substantial payroll jump next year.

by sdrone on Mar 20, 2006 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

i agree

i don't think reyes is going anywhere. If we dump any pitching it would be marquis and suppan for cash reasons. Reyes is just going down for some seasoning(and a two seamer) and from the stats i've seen he hasn't pitched well enough to be on the team and he has lost the "competition". This job was Ponson's to lose, Reyes didn't have a shot, I don't care what tony tells the media. I do think if he would have pitched better this spring it would have pushed Marquis out the door and put us in position for a trade there. I see Carpenter, Reyes, and Wainwright in the rotation next year. After that who knows. It comes down to how deep the pockets are, and they should be deep from the ticket sales and the buzz from the stadium that has been created so far. That article also said wainwright would not be making another start this spring.

by herr28 on Mar 20, 2006 1:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Why not sign Suppan

to an extention right now? One or two more years, $7M or something like that?

In other news, this probably means that both willy mo and Arroyo are off the market

by Valatan on Mar 20, 2006 1:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Suppan

If you can get him - I've been preaching this for months, but everyone has responded that you can pull pitchers "like" Suppan off the scrap heap (see Ponson, Sidney).

I keep pointing to the fact that the guy goes out and wins 16 games a year with a 4.00ish ERA and pitches very well in the playoffs (when they let him).

I don't understand it frankly - I'd rather have Suppan next year and let Mulder & Marquis walk.

Actually - I do understand it; Suppan isn't a "power" pitcher.

by STLEdge on Mar 20, 2006 2:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

it sure makes more sense to me

that they would trade marquis/supps as opposed to reyes. but if they've decided (rightly or wrongly) that he can't help them, he'll be gone.

don't forget, this isn't just me dreaming up trade scenarios to fill space on the blog. i'm citing joe strauss, who in turn is citing unnamed people within the organization . . . it's being discussed.

by lboros on Mar 20, 2006 1:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Having a hard time buying it

I don't see Reyes getting traded right now unless the Cards are giving up on him. The last I heard Reyes was trying to add a new pitch to go along with his Spring ERA of 8.68 and BAA of .375. Sure, the Spring stats are a small sample size but this is not the time to be moving Reyes. If the Cards believe Reyes has value, which I believe he does, they will let him straighten things out at AAA and then possibly explore a trade. Otherwise there would be all sorts of talk about how his stats do not reflect his true ability, etc coming from the Cards front office. If Reyes is traded now the Cards could expect very little in return as compared to him having a couple back to back quality starts in Memphis. Of course, the idea of a package deal including Reyes is always intriguing.

I mentioned it a few days ago on this site but got no response, but won't the Cards be going with a 4 man rotation until mid-late April anyway? Their schedule looks to play out that way. So Ponson could be coming out of the pen for a bit while both Wainwright and Reyes are pitching every fifth day for Memphis. Besides, the Cardinals are still deciding what to do with Mateo.

by acr on Mar 20, 2006 1:36 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

i haven't heard

anything about a 4-man rotation. you're right, the sched permits it --- and they did it last year while morris got ready. but i haven't heard them say one way or the other for this season.

by lboros on Mar 20, 2006 1:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

stomaching it

I could deal with it if they got some 23/24 year old, can't miss, OF or 2B prospect that could step in right away and, along with Pujols, be someone the team could build around for the next five years or so - of course Reyes has the potential to be that guy, thus my point. If they got a true Ian Kinsler-type 2B-man then it would be worth it given that top line talent at 2B is harder to come by than for the starting rotation. And with the crap floating around at 2B this spring, this might not be such a far-fetched idea.

Cardinals Diaspora

by VanRam on Mar 20, 2006 1:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

reyes

He has given up two dingers thus far, a solo shot to edgar and a two run shot by frenchy. Playing the braves on ESPN

by herr28 on Mar 20, 2006 2:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Hmmm.

We need some sort of spy there to tell us what the deal is.

by sdrone on Mar 20, 2006 2:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

"some within the organization"

I think we should put the Strauss item in slightly more context. He said:

"Today's start is expected to be Reyes' last in major-league camp, and SOME WITHIN THE ORGANIZATION BELIEVE it could be for the benefit of other clubs as much as for the Cardinals." (emphasis added)

In other words, Strauss talked to someone other than Jocketty speculating on what Jocketty might do. And the point seems to be that the start is of no benefit to the Cardinals because they've already decided to option him. Ergo, the thinking seems to go, it could only be for the benefit of some other team interested in a trade.

Like everyone else, I'd hate to see Reyes go -- his ML-minimum salary makes him a huge asset if he can indeed be solid starting pitcher. But if Jock is, as rumored in this very corner of cyberspace, inquiring about the likes of Miguel Cabrera, you have to figure Reyes is at least a possible part of the deal. So no surprise that they're showcasing him (or were hoping to).

DCGreg

by DCGreg on Mar 20, 2006 2:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Reyes

Am I just dense, or can't that sentence also be interpreted as Reyes being sent to AAA could be to the benefit of other clubs because they won't have to face him in the Cardinal rotation to start the season?

by Robb on Mar 20, 2006 2:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

it

I don't think that's a plausible reading. The "it" after "believe" seems to refer back to today's start and the fact that it's his last one of the spring. In other words, giving him one more start is what is supposedly for the benefit of other teams, not sending him to AAA.

DCGreg

by DCGreg on Mar 20, 2006 2:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

and that's significant

because reyes has been the organization's #1 prospect for two years running. so the fact that ANYONE inside the organization is talking loosely about trotting him out there for the benefit of opposing teams' scouts . . . . even if he isn't traded, it tells you the bloom's off the rose.

my guess is that certain people are frustrated by his reluctance to embrace the two-seamer; ie he's perceived in some quarters as "not coachable."

by lboros on Mar 20, 2006 3:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

"not coachable"

Boy, that would be a remarkable development if they conclude that. In every public comment I've seen, Reyes has said all the right things. Always something along the lines of "I'll do what they tell me to do." No indication that I've seen that this guy is, say, Jason Marquis refusing to throw the pitches Duncan wants him to throw.

DCGreg

by DCGreg on Mar 20, 2006 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Saying. Doing.

Different things.

by flynn on Mar 20, 2006 4:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

maybe i'm just

imagining it . . . but i honestly can't think of a single encouraging thing tony/dunc have said about this player all spring. i've only heard "big-league hitters are gonna hit that high heat of his a mile."

i just get the sense they've taken a dim view of him. hope i'm wrong

by lboros on Mar 20, 2006 4:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Looks like

he's being fitted for a space in the John Gall Memorial LaRussa Permanent Doghouse.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Mar 20, 2006 4:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

other clubs?

Or could the other club be Memphis?

by jroman on Mar 20, 2006 3:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

How is this for fun speculation?...

Soriano is odd-man out for the Nats. One of our 2-7 pitchers, Encarnacion, and Spivey for him. Add him to the line-up and we won't need to worry so much about corner outfield power. Highly unlikely but interesting.

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss

by thinktank on Mar 20, 2006 8:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Nationals need

The Nats need some middle relief, starting pitching and a left fielder. I could see them sending Mateo, Juan Rodriguez and/or Bigbie and either Wainwright or Reyes for Soriano. Then we have Soriano in 2b which is ok. I am not sure it would be best for the club in the big picture.

by acr on Mar 20, 2006 11:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

trading reyes

the only type player i would trade reyes for right now is carlos quentin. he is stuck in arizona like reyes is here. they are both highly rated prospects and will cost about the same amount for the next 6 years. quentin would provide the cardinals with the power hitting corner outfielder they need and reyes would give the d-backs a pitcher to go with the rest of their stud position prospects. now i think they should only do this if they are very confident in guys like lambert and pomeranz, because you can't keep trading away young, talented, and cheap pitchers like haren when pitchers are signing such huge contracts.

by fewgoodcards on Mar 20, 2006 9:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

on the surface it seems to make sense

for both teams: the dbacks have a glut of outfielders but are desperate for pitchers; the cards are desperate for outfielders.

but i don't think arizona will do it. they are probably gonna try to move one of their old outfielders (shawn green or gonzalez) and slot quentin into the vacancy.

by lboros on Mar 20, 2006 10:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs