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lineup funk

just last friday we were playing with a gizmo called steve's lineup toy; by saturday there was a new, better lineup toy to tinker with. this one, another of david pinto's many gifts to the baseball universe, is called Baseball Musings Lineup Analysis. it's similar to steve's lineup toy but more versatile, as i'll illustrate forthwith.

let's begin by taking the lineup that steve's lineup toy recommended:

eckstein, ss
encarnacion, rf
pujols, 1b
edmonds, cf
rolen, 3b
spivey, 2b
bigbie, lf
molina, c
pitcher

per steve, that batting order should generate 5.1 runs per game (i erroneously reported 4.8 runs/game last week; oops). but as i noted in friday's post, that result means nothing because it's based on player stats from 2005 -- and more than half the stl regulars had aberrant numbers (relative to their career norms) last year. david eckstein outslugged scott rolen in 2005, and larry bigbie lagged abe nunez by 40 points in obp; neither of those things is gonna happen again.

pinto's toy, thankfully, doesn't confine us to last year's numbers; you get to plug in whatever batting stats you want. so i typed in PECOTA projections for 2006 and ran them for the st louis lineup recommended by steve's toy. per pinto's gadget, with new and improved stat lines, that lineup would be expected to produce . . . . 5.0 runs a game. almost exactly the same as the projection based on 2005 numbers.

how far can we trust that estimate? as a check, i input the 2005 cardinals' stats by batting-order slot -- e.g., the cards' #6 hitters posted an aggregate .265 / .318 / .389; their #7 hitters put up .308 / .362 / .436 -- and ran the program to see how close it came to the cards' actual 2005 scoring average of 4.97 runs/game. the answer: 4.90, a variance of 1.4 percent. that's pretty damn good, but the difference still amounts to 12 runs over the course of a year -- which is worth more than a win in the standings. so the prudent reader will consider all the figures in this discussion as midpoints of a range -- estimated averages, give or take ~12 runs.

what happens if we move larry bigbie into the #2 hole -- as derrick goold persuasively advocated over at Bird Land this weekend -- and drop encarnacion to #6 and spivey to #7? no change, per this instrument: 5.0 runs / game. how 'bout (my own preference) we put edmonds in the #2 hole, with rolen hitting 4th and encarncion 5th? still no change: 5.0 runs a game. seems like it doesn't matter how you line these guys up, they score 5.0 runs a game. . . . well, that is, unless you line 'em up like this:

pujols, 1b
edmonds, cf
molina, c
rolen, 3b
bigbie, lf
encarnacion, rf
spivey, 2b
pitcher
eckstein, ss

this, according to pinto's toy, is the best way to order the cardinal hitters. the toy says that lineup would produce 5.2 runs a game, or 30 runs a season more than the other, more orthodox permutations. would you not love to see -- just once -- TLR trot that lineup card out to home plate? (and if any manager in baseball is nutty enough to do it, it's tony.) even if the cards got shut out, it'd still be worth it, if for no other reason than to hear shannon run through it during the pre-game. ("well folks, you'll never guess what ol' tony's got up his sleeve tonight.")

there's a bunch of math behind this madness; for those so inclined, you can get it from two posts (one and two) by cyril morong at SB Nation brother site Beyond the Boxscore. (dan scotto's saturday followup at BtB is also illuminating; or go back to this old retrosheet study for add'l discussion in this vein.) the basic rationale, as far as i can understand it, is this: you score the most runs if you a) get your best hitters the most at-bats possible -- hence they bat 1st and 2d -- and b) you keep your two worst hitters as far apart in the lineup as possible, in this case batting 3d and 8th. you cluster your best remaining hitters in slots 4 through 7 -- but you reserve a good OBP guy to bat 9th, to set the table for your 1-2 hitters when the lineup turns over. if we consider the pitcher to mark the endpoint of any (nat'l league) batting order, then this crazy lineup really functions like this:

eckstein, ss
pujols, 1b
edmonds, cf
molina, c
rolen, 3b
bigbie, lf
encarnacion, rf
spivey, 2b
pitcher

it's just that the cycle doesn't start at the top. it starts at station #2.

as crazy as the idea sounds, i actually like it; indeed, i endorsed something only slightly less weird at my old blog roughly one year ago -- to use larry walker as a leadoff hitter. my reasoning:

walker excels at the one skill a leadoff man has to have: on-base ability. he has a career obp of .401, which i grant is inflated by 10 seasons at coors field. but his obp away from coors over the last 6 seasons (covering 1255 at-bats) is .382 -- with a high of .416 and a low of .370. how good is .370? over the last 20 years only two stl leadoff men have beat it: frankie vina in 2001 (.380) and delino deshields in 1998 (.371).
josh schulz at the birdwatch improved on my idea by suggesting that eckstein should bat 9th -- as above, to set the table for walker once the lineup turned over. that batting order --

walker, rf
pujols, 1b
edmonds, cf
rolen, 3b
sanders, lf
grud'k, 2b
molina, c
pitcher
eckstein, ss

-- would have scored 5.3 runs a game, based on 2005 stat lines. the standard lineup (eckstein, walker, pujols, etc.) scores an estimated 5.2 a game, per to pinto's toy. that's a 16-run bonus -- and consistent with the result james click of baseball prospectus got last winter when, at my request, he ran some simulations to compare the walker-led lineup to the eckstein-led one.

again, this strange lineup isn't nearly as radical a departure as it first appears. if you look closely, you'll see that the walker-led alternative is identical to the standard batting order -- it simply begins at station #2, as i described above. to quote myself from the old blog:

think daylight savings time -- we follow the same cycle but arbitrarily displace the starting point by one unit. the day isn't any longer, but by "springing forward" from david to larry we allocate the sunshine more advantageously . . . . . which in this case means (i think) that we allocate about 60 - 80 of eckstein's at bats to walker pujols edmonds and/or rolen.
take 80 at-bats away from a guy with a .750 ops and give them to a guy with a .900+ ops, and you're gonna score some runs.

as much as i enjoy exercises like this, i gotta take 'em with a grain of salt. as i like to say (but haven't said in a while), ballplayers are not strat-o-matic cards; you can't just shuffle them around at will with changing their properties. the strat-o-matic jim edmonds v2005 is gonna slug .533 no matter what, but would the real-life version do the same if -- referring to the lineup that pinto's toy recommends for 2006 -- he had molina batting behind him all the time? ref'ncing the same lineup, would albert post the same obp and slg if his first at-bat in every game came with the bases empty?

i believe managers for no-chance-to-win teams have a duty to help us build up some real-life data in this regard. (clint hurdle, joe maddon, joe girardi -- are you listening?) they should be obliged (by order of the budly one) to write out a conventional lineup for 81 games a year and, for the other 81 games, to use the lineup recommended by pinto's toy. we'd quickly learn whether the funky lineups actually gets better results; for that matter, we'd be able to test cyril morong's underlying theories vis-vis the interrelationships among batting order slots.

here's one final tidbit: if you remove sanders, walker, and grud'k from the standard 2005 lineup and replace them with encarnacion, bigbie, and spivey, your production per pinto's toy falls from 5.2 runs a game to 4.8. ouch. that's 65 runs over the course of the season, 6 to 7 wins in the standings. . . . . but just remember: it's only a toy. it's only a toy. it's only a toy.

0 recs  |  Comment 16 comments

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Podcast
Have you ever thought about doing a podcast?  I think you would be great at it.

by Andy on Feb 27, 2006 10:23 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

thank you andy
but i have to admit i know very little about podcasts --- i am too old . . . . i know there are some bloggers who do them; don't know what it costs though. prob'y not much, since we're all working for free (!!!). if the audience is there, i'd be game.

by lboros on Feb 27, 2006 11:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Podcasting is easy
All you would need to do is make an MP3 and post a link to it on your blog, simple as that.  Maybe you and some of the other really good Cards bloggers can band together and do it.  The only cost I could think of would be the increased bandwidth.

by Andy on Feb 27, 2006 1:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

All well and good as a hypothetical...
but keep in mind LaRussa's firm philosophy is the three most dangerous hitters (with some adjustment for the leadoff man) MUST bat in the first frame.

Thus, LB, you are correct. It would seem that Edmonds is much more likely to bat second. There is also that RLRL fixation that LaRussa has, which would also argue for him in the two hole.

So Juancion is probably No. 4 or 5, I suppose. It would look like this:

Eck (R)
Jed (L)
Pujols (R)
Juan/Rolen (R)
Juan/Rolen (R)
Bigbie (L)
Spivey (R)
Molina (R)
Pitcher

by Red in Chicago on Feb 27, 2006 10:45 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

The 8th Spot
I have been playing with the new lineup toy using ZIPS projections (I dont have access to the PECOTA projections) and have noticed it is extremely consistently putting the pitcher in the 8th spot in the order in the best lineups and putting pujols in the 8th spot in the worst lineups. It seems like the mathematical model definitely sees the 8th spot as the least "influential" spot in the lineup.

It also seems like the variance among the different lineups is higher than i have seen in some of the Markov Chain based studies. Using this toy, the difference in production of best and worst lineups is about 10%. Most Markov Chain Models put that difference at about 3-4%. For an example of this see http://www.retrosheet.org/Research/RuaneT/lineup_art.htm.

PS. the zips projections were evidently more generous than the PECOTA. the toy gave the optimal cards' lineup (rolen pujols molina edmonds spivey jrod encarnacion pitcher eckstein) 5.669 runs per game, which would be about 918 runs in a season. that would be more than any 2005 team. thats overdoin' it if you ask me. the press would have a field day if the cards trotted out that lineup!

by TaiwanGuy on Feb 27, 2006 10:52 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

i think you're right about ZIPS
it does seem to yield more generous numbers for hitters than PECOTA does. at least, that has been the case for the hitters i've checked.

by lboros on Feb 27, 2006 11:50 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Another TLR issue
you bring up, TaiwanGuy, is that he refuses to move the pitcher out of the last slot.

He talked about this with Jason Marquis a lot last year. Yes, he should bat higher in the lineup, and LaRussa agrees. But he claims that it (a) raises too many questions and (b) screws up the slot for the relievers. Neither of which are valid reasons, IMO, but there it is.

The pitcher bats last.

by Red in Chicago on Feb 27, 2006 11:09 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

behind the 8 ball
Of course, TLR is the only manager in recent memory to actually bat the pitcher 8th on a regular basis for an extended period of time.  And he caught so much crap for it from the tradionalists that he is probably weary to ever give that one another try.

by Tudor 85 on Feb 27, 2006 11:28 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I wonder
what the difference in run production was when TLR batted the pitcher in the 8 hole when Big Mac was around. In theory more people on base for B-M to drive in, but the small sample size probably limits  the conclusions.

by Just Rope Ball on Feb 27, 2006 11:36 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

marquis
Ironically, Marquis may be the one hitter we DO want hitting ninth. The logic behind all this is that you want to bury the weakest hitter in the #8 slot and put the high OPS guy in the #9 slot. To move Marquis up because he's hitting so well would be to do it for exactly the wrong reason.

Good stuff, as always, lboros.

DCGreg

by DCGreg on Feb 27, 2006 11:38 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe try it in spring training...
IMHO the best possible time to experiment with an unconventional lineup is when the games don't count and everybody is having fun - such as, spring training.  Earnshaw Cook argued for somewhat similar lineups in Percentage Baseball, about 40 years ago, but he understood percentages much better than he understood baseball, which is maybe why the idea got no traction.

Did the Cards score noticably more with Marquis hitting than with other pitchers?

by madridbend on Feb 27, 2006 1:03 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

the 2 hole
The Cards' official website has a pole up right now asking who should bat in the 2nd spot. According to the poll, Spivey is the most popular choice right now. I don't think I like that idea much.

by amettrick on Feb 27, 2006 1:39 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Only a toy
It's only a toy indeed. It doesn't take into account that Bigbie, Encarnacion and Spivey will benefit from the production of Pujols and Edmonds for example.

by Neuronix on Feb 27, 2006 2:05 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Line Up
I see why you guys would want to put Jimmy in the 2 hole... but look at his numbers. Last year he hit drastically worse in the two spot. He has also publicly said that he prefers hitting 4th or 5th. I see no reason to hit Jimmy 2nd. We have two other guys who had a little bit of pop and on-base skills (Spivey and Juan) who can hit second. Both of those guys have a little bit more speed than Jimmy as well. And before you go and say that Juan doesn't have good on-base skills consider that he has never hit in front of the best hitter in baseball before. Hes a fastball hitter, and will get plenty of fastballs in from of Number 5.

by BigMac545 on Feb 27, 2006 5:43 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

You're right...
DCGreg. It IS rather ironic that TLR has contemplated putting marquis (of all pitchers) in 8th spot. He is the ONLY pitcher that shouldnt bat 8th according to this model.

It is also rather ironic that the 2nd worst hitter is always put in the 3rd spot, when that spot is usually considered to be the place for the best hitter on the team.

According to the retrosheet article i posted above, these are the 10 best lineups (numbers represent traditional lineup spots):

1 3 2 5 4 6 7 9 8
1 3 2 5 4 6 8 7 9
1 3 4 2 5 6 7 9 8
1 3 4 5 2 6 7 9 8
1 3 4 2 5 6 8 7 9
1 3 4 5 2 6 8 7 9
1 3 2 5 4 6 7 8 9
1 2 4 3 5 6 8 7 9
1 2 5 3 4 6 8 7 9
1 3 4 5 6 2 7 9 8

this agrees (for the most part) with the lineup toy on:
(a) the placement of pujols; and
(b) sometimes agrees on putting the pitcher in the 8th spot.

but the big difference is that the toy puts the second worst hitter on the team as far away from the worst hitter on the team as possible, but the markov model never puts '8' earlier than the 7th spot in the lineup.

i wish i could see more of an explanation of the toy.

by TaiwanGuy on Feb 27, 2006 7:36 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I
好~!

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by shouj618 on Jun 18, 2006 11:15 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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