Civil Rights Tribe?

by rockin redbird on Dec 5, 2006 5:27 AM EST Comment 36 comments

Re: The Civil Rights Game. Does anybody else find it odd that the first game of what will surely become a national tradition celebrating equality and human decency will be played with the Indians (commonly known as "The Tribe"--a term not so enjoyed by Native Americans. And actually, "indians" isn't so hot either--it's considered analogous to using "negroes" to describe African-Americans)? As the official site says, Cleveland was the first AL team to integrate and the first with an African-American manager--so their credentials there can't be disputed. But that logo of the caricatured "injun brave" is awfully close to a mammy-face, isn't it? That's why the Atlanta Braves dropped the "screaming warrior" logo they used throughout the 50's-70's (though the "Tomahawk Chop" obviously survives with fans). I have an acquaintance who is a Native American rights activist and he finds the Indians' logo incredibly offensive. He's also working to rid U of I of their "Chief" mascot here in Illinois, an effort that has so far been met with vehement opposition from U of I officials and many vocal fans. What do you guys (and ladies) think about this? Should tradition trump modern p.c. attitudes when sports teams are concerned?

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Chief Wahoo

Is pretty ridiculous. I'm pretty un-PC regarding mascots, with some exceptions ("Redskins" needs to go -- it's unbelievable that name is still around), but... yeah... that logo is really something. It's almost as bad as the Peoria Chief's old mascot "Chief Rainout."

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Dec 5, 2006 6:56 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Interesting question

However, I think the topic is a little too political, and should probably be discussed somewhere else.

No offense RR, just my opinion...

"Sorry I'm late. I had to stop by the wax museum again and give the finger to FDR!"

by iron duke75 on Dec 5, 2006 7:16 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

I did debate

that with myself, but since this issue involves the politics of sports in general and baseball in particular (it's not a dem/gop or lib/con issue, in other words), I believe it has a place here. We've discussed rascism in the sport before, and what are we discussing when we discuss, say, what happened with Curt Flood but politics? It's politics, but it is baseball politics. No offense taken, though--at all.

by rockin redbird on Dec 5, 2006 9:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

as long as the conversation remains cool

and focused on the substance of the issue, i'll suspend the "no politics" rule. good conversation so far. what i don't want to see ---- and i'm not pointing fingers at anyone --- is an exchange of insults and stereotypes (viz., "all you liberals . . . . all you conservatives"). i don't want it getting uncomfortable for anybody who might be visiting the site.

as long as the conversation stays in the current spirit, i'm happy to have it here.

by lboros on Dec 5, 2006 9:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks, LB

You know I wouldn't bother to post a topic to get that kind of dead-end debate started. As far as it goes, I have both dem and gop friends who are on mixed sides of this issue (it's a really big issue here in central Illinois), so anybody reducing it to a purely lib/con argument would be way off base anyway. I know that doesn't mean somebody couldn't try that tactic, but I was/am hoping they'd see the futility of it before posting. If not, please do remove the entire entry.

by rockin redbird on Dec 5, 2006 10:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I always thought that they were much less

bothered by the University of Illinois and Florida because their mascots referred to specific, local tribes

by Valatan on Dec 5, 2006 7:32 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

i'm pretty certain

that while you are correct about fl. state's relationship to the seminole tribe, the same is not true of the existence of an 'illini' tribe or a 'chief illiniwek (sp?)'.

by sdesserman on Dec 5, 2006 7:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The Illiniwek are real

see here

by Valatan on Dec 5, 2006 8:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

What bothers

Native Americans about U of I's Chief is that he is and always has been an imaginary figure portrayed by a white suburban kid dressed in faux warpaint, headress, and buckskins who dances a faux "wardance" at halftimes. Native Americans, at least according to my acquaintance, compare this to the black face and jiving of the old minstrel shows that are so offensive to African Americans. The Illini People were real, but the portrayal of the Chief is a fantasy based on white-caricatured traditions rather than any traditions having to with the real Illini culture. Native Americans see this as a debasement of their very real traditions and a continuation of the long-held beliefs that Native Americans were/are little but "noble savages."

by rockin redbird on Dec 5, 2006 9:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks

never been to any illini events, and that is pretty bad

by Valatan on Dec 5, 2006 10:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree RR

This seems very narrow minded/short sighted of MLB. Did they think no one would notice or care?

by secretweapon on Dec 5, 2006 9:07 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Indian Mascots/Civil Rights

Yeah, this is vaguely political, but it's relevant to baseball.

First of all, I certainly agree with Fritz about the Redskins. The NFL should feel ashamed that one of their premier organizations, that plays in our nation's capital no less, plays under a team nickname that is a racial slur. But I'm OK with Indian-styled team nicknames as long as they are respectful and within reason. For example, the symbol of Florida State, the Seminole, is sanctioned by the Seminole Tribe.

But the Cleveland Indians don't really do that. I think you'd be hard pressed to say that this logo really treats Native Americans with dignity:

by Fitz on Dec 5, 2006 9:08 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

The Illini

They're a real tribe (or were). Don't you find it odd that "Illinois" and "Illini" are very similar? Personally, I WOULD BE OFFENDED IF they got rid of Cheif Illiniwek.

by SethWestern on Dec 5, 2006 9:20 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

See

If the Chief position was given to a Native American, perferebly on scholarship, I would have no problem with it what-so-ever. I completely understand why Native Americans would be offended by having someone of another culture portraying them, though.

As kind of an aside on this topic: Is the term "Braves" offensive to Native Americans? I only ask b/c the NCAA has told Bradley to stop using it, and it's a name I had always thought showed a great deal of respect.

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Dec 5, 2006 10:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Alex--

That's weird. I proposed that exact thing to the guy I know, but he just laughed. His take was that offering a scholarship to a Native American to portray the Chief would be tantamount to offering an African American a free ride to portray "Steppin Fetchit" at a Black Face Rally. In other words, paying a guy to take part in the debasement of his own culture to legitimize the offending portrayal. Not a viable compromise as far as he's concerned. As for the use of "Braves," I dunno. I'll ask him next time I see him, though my guess is that it must be considered an invented and stereotypical term if Bradley has been asked to dump it.

by rockin redbird on Dec 5, 2006 11:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I see

his point, too. It (Chief Illinwek) is a delicate and somewhat strange issue, to say the least.

As for Bradley, I wish they'd just drop the "s" in "Braves" and become the "Brave." Can anyone object to that?

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Dec 5, 2006 11:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Nice...

"They're a real tribe (or were)."

We can't even remember if we wiped the Illini out of existence or not, yet we name the team after them. Indians, Redskins, Seminoles are like Tigers, Cowboys, or Gators, it conveys ferocity, guile, strength... We have to stop thinking of Native Americans as animals. They're human beings.

by guayzimi on Dec 5, 2006 11:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Anyone remember...

Chief Knock-A-Homa? Every time the Braves would hit a homerun, the little teepee would let smoke out, and the Chief would come out.

by Bullet Bob Gibson on Dec 5, 2006 9:29 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Hoo Boy....

Y'all are probably aware of the NCAA "ban" on "Native American mascots"... but it remains a murky issue. Once upon a time, athletic team names were selected because of the admirable qualities those names suggested. "Indians" were considered brave warriors, fierce fighters, stoutly honorable, and so on.

There are other "ethnic groups" used as team mascots... the "Fighting Irish" of Notre Dame the most famous, but there are also "Vandals" at Idaho, the NFL's Minnesota Vikings, and the "Ragin' Cajuns" of Louisiana-Lafayette. Some teams are named after epithets that were adopted by the affronted parties and turned into "positive" identities... such as the New York Yankees or the Indiana Hoosiers!

Florida State gets a "pass" from the NCAA's attempt to eliminate "Indian" teams because FSU has a contract with the actual Seminole Nation for the use of the name, and the appearence of "Chief Osceola" at FSU games. (FSU's "Chief" is dressed as authentically as possible.)

Arkansas State University has tried to walk a fine line, since the team name "Indians" enjoys overwhelming support from students and alumni. A cartoon-character Indian was quietly retired years ago, before the current NCAA threats (er, suggestions). Three authentically-clad students appear at football and basketball games, but they really don't do much except show up. The school has also returned to a block-letter "STATE" logo first used in the '80s, replacing an "ASU" logo that featured an "Indian head" as part of the "S". Whenever Native Americans appear at ASU, they are pictured in a dignified and respectful manner.

Were it me, I'd allow the "Indians" nicknames to stand. European immigrants stole their freakin' country... do we really want to forget about the people that were here first? The "Redskins," Chief Wahoo, and Chief Illiniwek should be replaced... but at the same time, let's make Notre Dame get rid of that damn fake leprechaun paradin' on their sidelines!

"A man should live forever, or die trying." -- Mike Callahan

by The Ol Goaler on Dec 5, 2006 11:18 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Notre Dame is a little different

as so many of the students are of Irish descent

by Valatan on Dec 5, 2006 1:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think

Or at least hope, that the ND comment was tounge in cheek.

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Dec 5, 2006 1:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Notre Dame

For some reason, Notre Dame is just fine. I'm half Irish, and I love the 'Fighting Irish'. But my German side would certainly be offended if you had a team called "The Hateful Krauts", or something like that.

Actually, I still wouldn't be offended. That would be awesome. I'd buy the t-shirt.

by Fitz on Dec 5, 2006 1:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

I have always found it odd that ND is never part of these discussions

by Valatan on Dec 5, 2006 3:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That is actually

my smartass comment whenever someone says that the "Fightin' Illini" shouldn't be used; ie. I'm Irish as can be and "Fightin' Irish" doesn't offend me.

Of course, the argument really is apples to oranges.

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Dec 5, 2006 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Reactions on different campuses

to "people" mascots obviously differ.

Southeast Missouri State switched from "Indians" to "RedHawks" because the student body wanted to make a change. More power to 'em, I sez!

At Arkansas State University, both students and alumni are strongly attached to the "Indians" identity... including those students and alumni of Native descent! State even had a half-Cherokee basketball player a couple years back who thought being part Indian and playing for the "Indians" was "cool"...

Locally, one Native American group said they had only one complaint about the ASU Indians... they didn't like the cartoon character. Just like that, the cartoon character was GONE.

(Sigh) Maybe we should just name teams for the color of their socks! <wink>

"A man should live forever, or die trying." -- Mike Callahan

by The Ol Goaler on Dec 6, 2006 10:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I thought it interesting, too

that MLB would schedule the Indians for a Civil Rights Game.

It's funny that the "Chief" Illiniwek/minstrelsy analogy was made... I've long harped on that.

As far as Chief Wahoo goes, how is that any different from the offensive "Little Black Sambo" caricature?

I, too, am from central Illinois, RR. Where are you, if I may ask? I work at The State Journal-Register in Springfield, where there is a policy against using the term "Redskins" in print. NFL stories refer to "Washington." Glenwood High in nearby Chatham recently changed its mascot from "Redskins" to "Titans," but only after much hue and cry. One small town in the circulation area, Nokomis (home of the Bottomley-Ruffing-Schalk baseball museum), still uses "Redskins" as their mascot.

The 26th Man

by 26thMan on Dec 5, 2006 11:54 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Don't forget Pekin

Now the Dragons, formerly the Chinks.

by secretweapon on Dec 5, 2006 12:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

When I played

against Pekin in HS, I was always amazed seeing their trophey cases w/ tropheys reading "Pekin Chinks" until, what, the early 80's?

Those crowds (basketball) could get mighty ugly, too. I know they weren't indicative of all things Pekin... but, wow... That can be a mighty scary place.

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Dec 5, 2006 12:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You aren't kidding...

I saw some old lady wearing a Pekin Chinks sweatshirt back on Black Friday.

And then there's the Pekin chant...

Let's just say that town has had some issues in the past.

by edgesofsanity on Dec 5, 2006 1:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I live

in Charleston. You probably already know, but it's about 45 mins due south of Champaign/Urbana, a little over an hour SE of Springfield. I have several friends in Riverton, so I get up near Springfield fairly often.

by rockin redbird on Dec 5, 2006 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Indians' logo

There is no question in my mind that the Cleveland logo is offensive. If I were Native American, I would be furious about the stereotype. What's worse is that they're exposing this logo in what is called a "civil rights" game. In other words, some kinds of racism don't count because there aren't enough Native Americans around to complain.

And why do the Cardinals fit in this game? The Dodgers, Giants and Indians were the first teams to integrate, and the Cardinals' first black player came several years later (Tom Alston in 1952 or 1953?)

As for Chief Illiniwek, the Illini were Woodlands Indians who never wore the type of headdress worn by Chief Illiniwek. A true Chief Illiniwek might wear an Otterskin cap. And the presumed war dance is a mere figment of white imagination.

What most Americans don't realize is that the Native American customs portrayed with such nonchalance are highly religious. How would Catholics feel about having a team called the _ Priests and have a person in white collar and cloak perform a mock mass in the center of a basketball court while fans cheered loudly?

by Fred McTaggart on Dec 5, 2006 6:06 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Cardinals fit...

I imagine the Cardinals were tapped due to the location being in Memphis, home of their Triple A affiliate.

by edgesofsanity on Dec 5, 2006 9:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Well, the San Diego Padres

have a "big head" mascot (a la Fredbird) who is dressed as a "medieval" Franciscan friar. While the Franciscans don't wear tonsures (the "shaved" bald head with a fringe of hair around it) anymore, they still wear the brown robes.

I haven't heard any complaints, but I don't live in San Diego.

"A man should live forever, or die trying." -- Mike Callahan

by The Ol Goaler on Dec 6, 2006 10:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Pekin

When I was growing up in Decatur in the 1950s, the word was that a black person was not allowed to remain in Pekin after dusk. There was a racist saying associated with that prohibition, and I believe a sign was posted to that effect on the outskirts of town.

Senator Dirksen was from Pekin, as I remember.

by Fred McTaggart on Dec 5, 2006 6:10 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Hey, more Central Illinois folk here.

Don't forget the Gridley Redskins and the Chilicothe Klansmen ERR, make that Grey Ghosts. I dated a girl a few years ago who was president of ISU's Native American Student Association. According to her, there are more schools in Illinois that coopt Native American terms than anywhere else in the country.

As far as I'm concerned, Cleveland would do well to dump Chief Wahoo, as I'm sure the Native American groups will have a field day over this announcement. If they are upset, they'll have every right to be.

But it still isn't as bad as the Washington Redskins. Talk about symbolism...

by matt reeder on Dec 5, 2006 7:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

it's tough

I have a great deal of progressive ideas and ideals. That being said, I played sports at the U of I and never felt guilty about having the Chief Illiniwek portrayed on our 3rd jerseys.

At the U of I, he is respected although represented by a white male in the dance.

At the same time, Illiniwek is 'low-hanging fruit'- I say that because the U of I, as well as a lot of upper learning schools, is a liberal place. There's a lot of student pressure, lot of graduate pressure, etc.

On the scale of racist logos/symbols, I'd have to rate it mild.

Certainly the respective higher ups would do better eliminating the crooked-nosed, firewater drinking Cleveland Indians mascot.

And certainly the Washington Crackers, I mean Spics, I mean Redskins. (Typed for effect)

"Seeing a great catch is like watching girls walk by, the last one you see is always the prettiest." Bob Gibson

by SchwabbaMoose on Dec 6, 2006 2:02 PM EST reply actions 0 recs