cards hot after batista

cmon Kansas City!!!

do us a favor and take Batista!

10-time World Champs!

by TheFranchise9 on Dec 5, 2006 3:12 PM EST reply actions

Why are we going after overpaying Batista. If we get him, that would be the biggest waste of money possible. We could easily trade for someone of his calibur and same so much money while doing so. We really don't have to give in to those prices, we could always trade. Batista's not young nor exceptional, there are plenty of guys like that out on the market. Not to mention, we'd have him until he's 39. Yay!

I'm with "The Franchise," C'monnnn Kansas City!

Acquire Barry Zito!

by aet15 on Dec 5, 2006 3:26 PM EST reply actions

We need a difference-maker

We have a true #1 stud, two young guys with upside (but not there yet!) and a rehab project. I think we need more than league average. I hope that KC wins this one - presuming that we can get someone like Schmidt or Maddux as FA or swing a trade for an above-average starter.

This is really getting interesting. If we really are pursuing Batista and have offers out to Weaver, Mulder and Suppan - and want Dotel for an already-full bullpen......Walt has some deals brewing. We obviously don't need all those pitchers, as nice as an extra here or there would be. Or is it just as simple as the fact that we need a bunch of lines in the water to snag one or two live ones?

by wildman on Dec 5, 2006 3:29 PM EST reply actions

Rotation

Are the Cards really serious about converting Looper into a starter? At the end of the year, LaRussa had obviously lost confidence in him - and that was pitching one or two innings at most. Now they want him to go 6 or 7? Yeesh. I would rather see them sign Schmidt, Suppan/Weaver and maybe one other guy to compete with Wells for the 5th spot. The best thing to do with Looper is to TRADE him away to unload his ridiculous contract. Also, shouldn't they be looking at finding another outfielder? Encarnacion is solid defensively, but the only thing he does well at the plate is strike out. And Duncan is the exact opposite - good hitter, can't catch a cold. That sounds like a platoon to me. Find another decent OF (where were they on Dellucci??) to bolster the lineup.

Cards fan in Denver

by Futility Infielder on Dec 6, 2006 9:37 AM EST up reply actions

Dellucci

I love the guy and think he wasted on Phillies bench, but he is the wrong half of a platoon for us.

We need someone to compliment JRod and Dunc, not compete with them.

by RedbirdRay on Dec 6, 2006 10:05 AM EST up reply actions

what type

of free agent is batista?

by FutureMan on Dec 5, 2006 3:34 PM EST reply actions

Type A

by lboros on Dec 5, 2006 3:36 PM EST up reply actions

A draft pick to boot....

That makes it less palatable. Let's hope this is part of a bigger plot to firm up the rotation - i.e. bring in a strong #2 behind Carp.

by wildman on Dec 5, 2006 3:45 PM EST up reply actions

I hate to doubt you, but

According to Baseball America Batista is a type B.

by OCCardsFan on Dec 5, 2006 3:50 PM EST up reply actions

type B it is

i'm wrong --- and glad of it, as a #1 pick would be hard to lose for any player . . . . .

by lboros on Dec 5, 2006 3:55 PM EST up reply actions

IIRC he was offered arbitration

http://arizona.diamondbacks.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061201&content_id=1749363& amp;vkey=news_ari&fext=.jsp&c_id=ari

but a Type B agent only gives them a sandwich pick so that's palatable.

Acquire Jason Schmidt!

by azruavatar on Dec 5, 2006 3:56 PM EST up reply actions

Type B

He's listed as a relief pitcher. I still don't see Miguel Batista being a significant enough improvement over the likes of a Jamey Wright to warrant a contract anywhere near 3/$21.

by liam on Dec 5, 2006 3:53 PM EST up reply actions

i gotta disagree

Batista is durable and reliable for league average. He's been better than league average according to ERA+ since 2001, topped 180 IP 4 of the last 5 years with the exception being when he was closing games for Toronto in 2005.

Wright has posted an 87 ERA+ for two years running and topped a 170 once since 2001.

Acquire Jason Schmidt!

by azruavatar on Dec 5, 2006 4:02 PM EST up reply actions

Understandable disagreement

Batista's a clearly better pitcher. Wright was misused last season and arguably in 2005. He was overextended early and faded as the season went on. He's a solid 6IP per start pitcher who we could have on a one-year deal for less than two million. I'd rather have him for the year and give a few starts to some of the arms coming up in the farm like Hawk, Stu, or whoever looks sharp next season.

I'm not sold on Schmidt or any of this year's FA's. At this point, I'd rather fill these last rotation slots with Wainwright and Narveson or a one-year offer for Jamey Wright over Miguel Batista and see about signing Westbrook next offseason.

It'd be a better season if we could move along some of the young pitchers rather than overcommitting to and overpaying an older pitcher like Batista.

I won't lose any sleep if we sign Batista to this deal. It's just not what I'd prefer.

by liam on Dec 5, 2006 4:32 PM EST up reply actions

Hawksworth

Does anyone think this kid has a legit shot at making the team out of Spring Training as Wainwright did a year ago?

Baily

by Baily on Dec 5, 2006 9:54 PM EST up reply actions

Not I

But I could see him adjusting well to AAA and getting a call-up for spot starts after the all-star break.

by liam on Dec 5, 2006 10:32 PM EST up reply actions

The only way I like a Batista signing

is if Wainwright stays in the pen and we sign Schmidt. Batista is an older version of Suppan and if the deal is 18M/3years that's something right around market inflation of Jeff's old contract.

I'm not an advocate of Wainwright in the pen long term but it would give us more depth in the rotation and some insurance for the short term. A Schmidt/Batista signing could also portend Reyes getting traded... That kind of talk has cooled but I'm not sure the organization is sold on him still.

Short answer: There are worse ways to fill out the back of a rotation than Kip Wells and Batista.

Acquire Jason Schmidt!

by azruavatar on Dec 5, 2006 3:35 PM EST reply actions

split the difference

what if they get batista for 3 / $21m . . . . . could you live with that?

i think i could, given the realities of this market.

by lboros on Dec 5, 2006 3:37 PM EST up reply actions

I'd feel better about that

Especially if there was a clear path to a strong #2 starter.

by wildman on Dec 5, 2006 3:39 PM EST up reply actions

6-8 million a year...

whatever you want to call it. Batista provides some backend stability and sheer innings that the rotation could otherwise be lacking. I'm good with that if only because it could preserve the bullpen arms which has a trickle down effect of production by not overtaxing other pitchers.

But this doesn't solve the problem that I've felt the Cardinals have had for three years running now. They don't have a number 2 pitcher. Mulder didn't pan out and I think that they shouldn't rely on Wainwright or Reyes emerging yet when they have the money (possibly) to get Schmidt.

The Batista signing is only important to me relative to what it means in terms of how Walt can fill the other rotation spot.

Acquire Jason Schmidt!

by azruavatar on Dec 5, 2006 3:42 PM EST up reply actions

As long as it's back of the rotation!

We already have:

Carp
Reyes
Wainwright
Wells

Unless there's a trade out there or another signing (like Schmidt) I don't see Batista as back of the rotation.

by wildman on Dec 5, 2006 3:38 PM EST up reply actions

The problem is that...

they aren't going to be in the back of the rotation. The back of our rotation is already filled with Wells and Reyes (is anyone convinced that Reyes in a number 3 starter rignt now? I'm not). Batista would probably be the second best pitcher on the staff if we signed him and didn't make a move for Schmidt. The ONLY way signing him makes sense is if we since Schmidt and use Bastista as our number 3 starter. Thank being said I would much rather commit that kind of money or Jeff Weaver who is much younger, has much better stuff, and has a much higher ceiling. Signing Bastista makes no sense to me... Jeff Weaver isn't likley to cost too much more than 3/24M and is significantly better.

by BigMac545 on Dec 5, 2006 3:40 PM EST up reply actions

I am...

and in the WS he was a game 1 starter.

He projects much better than anyone on the staff not named Carp and has shown better stuff than any of the others also.

by RedbirdRay on Dec 5, 2006 3:43 PM EST up reply actions

I agree

I'd rather throw money at a player like Weaver who came through for Cards in the clutch and obviously responds to D.Duncan than let him go in favor of Batista. There can't be that big of a difference in contracts between these two guys can there?

Baily

by Baily on Dec 5, 2006 9:57 PM EST up reply actions

Im with with yo guys...

Why commit to this guy for three years? That would not be a wise move. Plus, if we sign Bastista who is our number 2 starter? With Bastista we have an Ace in Carp and then 4 #4 or #5 starters. This would not be a good rotation... and I wouldn't feel good about our chances of making the playoffs with it next year...

Carp
Bastista
Reyes
Wainwright
Wells

NO ONE could be excited about that... NO ONE.

by BigMac545 on Dec 5, 2006 3:36 PM EST reply actions

Reyes projects much better

than a number 4 or 5 starter.

by RedbirdRay on Dec 5, 2006 3:38 PM EST up reply actions

yes

either reyes or wainwright (if he starts) could be a 15-game winner ---- they're prob'y at least as likely to be that as gil meche, jeff weaver, or jeff suppan.

by lboros on Dec 5, 2006 3:44 PM EST up reply actions

Maybe

I tend to agree with BigMac on this one. Batista is at best a #3 and I'd hesitate to view Reyes and Wainwright as anything better than a #4.

Cards really need to land Schmidt. The the rest of the Cards fall into place much better and much easier. Plus, the excitement level over such pitchers heading into the season would be tremendous.

Baily

by Baily on Dec 5, 2006 10:02 PM EST up reply actions

I vote for

passing on Batista, moving Wainwright to rotation and overspending on Schmidt to get him to wear the Birds on Bat. Carp, Schmidt, Reyes, Wells and Wainwright is quite acceptable and potentially exceptional.

Baily

by Baily on Dec 5, 2006 10:05 PM EST up reply actions

Why no love for Miggy?

He's cut from the same cloth as Soup.

ERA+ for Batista since '01: 136, 103, 132, 101, 109, 104

For Soup: 112, 97, 105, 100, 120, 107

Soup was a difference maker. Batista could be as well. He is a bit older than Soup, but he'll come cheaper.

by guayzimi on Dec 5, 2006 3:38 PM EST reply actions

I don't know about others...

But my reasoning is Batista is about average now, but entering the age where most pitchers hit a wall and the bottom drops out. A multi-year deal? No way.

by RedbirdRay on Dec 5, 2006 3:41 PM EST up reply actions

Exactly

Pretty much the only way I'd want this guy is one or two years.

Acquire Barry Zito!

by aet15 on Dec 6, 2006 12:47 AM EST up reply actions

higher hopes

its not that i dont like batista, but that i had higher hopes. if wainwright is in the rotation there should be quite a few dollars left to spend. the problem, apparently, is finding someone worthy of that cash.

by dmb60614 on Dec 5, 2006 4:02 PM EST up reply actions

No no no no

Get a strong #2 behind Carp. That's all we should be going after.

by SirVLCIV on Dec 5, 2006 3:40 PM EST reply actions

Absolutely.

We need, quite simply, a second starter who can win two games in a 7-game series. That is what Mulder couldn't do. It's what Matt Morris couldn't do. And there isn't anyone but Carpenter who can.

Another league-average guy doesn't get you past the second round of the playoffs.

by Red in Chicago on Dec 5, 2006 3:44 PM EST reply actions

only two guys like that out there

zito and schmidt. zito ain't coming to st louis, and schmidt wants to stay on the west coast. so . . . . . . if those choices are out of play, your choices are

batista for $7m a year
weaver for $9m
supps / padilla / meche for $11m

given those options, i'll take batista

by lboros on Dec 5, 2006 3:47 PM EST up reply actions

Is Weaver a one year deal?

If so, I'd much rather have one year of gamble than 3 years of decline.

At least we know Duncan can be somewhat of an influence on Weaver and has established some ground work.

Weaver has a lot more upside also.

One year gives us time to see just how our young guys will establish themselves and buys us time before we lock into years of free agent mediocrity.

by RedbirdRay on Dec 5, 2006 3:50 PM EST up reply actions

I'd take a...

3yr/$21mm for Batista too... We might even get a 2yr deal with an option.

Why do you think Weaver is going to get $9mm? The Cards obviously don't want him at that price. He couldn't even stay on the roster last year at $8.325mm.

I can't believe teams are dumb enough to make the same exact mistake in consecutive seasons w/Weava...

by guayzimi on Dec 5, 2006 3:52 PM EST up reply actions

i'm just guessing

based on adam eaton's contract. if eaton's worth $8m over 3 years (he had a 5.12 era last year), then weaver should fetch slightly more ---- he's more durable, has a better long-term track record, and pitched nearly as well last year as eaton did. factor in weaver's october bounce, and i'm guessing someone will give him about $9 mill.

as for last year's market --- just throw it out the window. last year's prices mean nothing.

by lboros on Dec 5, 2006 4:43 PM EST up reply actions

discounts and ages

I'm not sure I can accept the estimates. If KC is offering Batista $8 mln, you're assuming he'd give St. Louis a discount. I think it much more likely that Weaver would offer the Cards a discount that'd bring him below $9 mln.

And even at your prices, Larry, if we're talking a three-year deal, I think I'd take 30-year-old Jeff Weaver over 36-year-old Miguel Batista. As I said down below, Batista's age is the biggest problem with the Suppan comparison that you make in your earlier entry. We'd have to expect some significant decline.

by DCGreg on Dec 5, 2006 5:12 PM EST up reply actions

that's not necessarily true

woody williams was 34 when the cards got him (one year younger than batista), and they re-signed him for his age 35 through 37 seasons --- no decline at all. they were, on the contrary, the best years of his career. and woody has remained effective in the two seasons since he left.

jamie moyer, also similar to batista through his mid-30s, blossomed in his late 30s. (see his career line.)

just a couple of off-the-cuff examples. batista is in good shape and shows no signs of slowing down.

moreover --- even if they sign batista, there's still plenty of money left over with which to sign weaver if the team can get him at the price they want. so it's not an either/or proposition.

by lboros on Dec 5, 2006 5:22 PM EST up reply actions

If there's more in the offing

then I like the signing.

I think a lot of the negative sentiment on the board with Batista is the thought that we're done pursuing starters after that. If that's an incorrect assumption (and I hope it is) then he could be a solid addition to the staff.

by wildman on Dec 5, 2006 5:28 PM EST up reply actions

well, and

I think many of us would like there to be only one more signing because we'd like Wainwright to be in the rotation. Signing two more big-money guys seems to me like it tickets Wainwright for the pen at the start of the year.

by DCGreg on Dec 5, 2006 5:40 PM EST up reply actions

Good point

I want Wainwright in the rotation, as well. But maybe there is a trade in the offing that could involve getting an impact bat. If that involves a starter it would likely be either Reyes or Wainwright. I'm not sure I like that (depending on who we get). If I had my choice I think I'd keep Wainwright - although WS game 1 sure showed that Reyes has the goods.

by wildman on Dec 5, 2006 5:45 PM EST up reply actions

Weavah!

sign me up for weaver. no contest.

10-time World Champs!

by TheFranchise9 on Dec 5, 2006 5:39 PM EST up reply actions

In the beginning...

of the free agent season, I didn't think there was really any chance Cards could sign Schmidt. Given what he'd cost, the Cards tradition of being a bridesmaid in this FA game and rumor that Schmidt wanted to play in Seattle or at least stay out West. However, now I tend to think Cards are really in the hunt. Tend to think it will come down to Cards and Dodgers. Of course, Dodgers have much deeper pockets and the west coast factor...OK, that does it. Batista it is.

But folks do have a point. Cards need another guy that can win two games per series in the post-season. If not Schmidt, then Walt has to come up with a big trade. Carp and a bunch of back-end guys isn't good enough (despite the end result of 2006).

Baily

by Baily on Dec 5, 2006 10:12 PM EST up reply actions

Who was that guy in 2006?

n/t

by sdrone on Dec 5, 2006 11:35 PM EST up reply actions

don't like it

We know Carp is an ace, and that Wells and Miggy are #4-ish starters. Puts a lot of pressure on WW and/or Reyes to step up -- and if they don't, it just isn't a very inspiring pitching staff.

On the other hand, let's assume they sign Miggy for $7m per year -- don't we have $16-18m left to spend at that point? What else could they spend that on other than Schmidt or some other impact guy from a trade?

by tdawg on Dec 5, 2006 3:48 PM EST reply actions

don't forget

First off, I love Wainy in the pen. Closer for years to come, I hope that's what Walt is thinking.

As for starters. Don't forget about Mulder. If we can get a solid #2 like Schmidt or Jennings. Reyes would be our #3 to start off with and I will take my chances with Mulder and Wells as the bottom 2. Mulder will have a comback year from being hurt. A one year deal would be a steal for Mulder. He will pitch his butt off to increase his pay for the following years.

I just don't see Bautista as that #2 that we need. I guess it is because I know what Suppan can do, but I just trust and want him a lot more then Miggy.

Play hard, play to win, but make it fun!

by Edmonds is baseball on Dec 5, 2006 4:09 PM EST reply actions

Listen...

There are no starters that we can obtain through a reasonable trade/signing that will make our rotation "Desirable". The market is screwed right now, and that's just the way it is. We should just be happy that we have a solid ace and a couple promising youngsters, that's more than alot of teams can say.

Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Dec 5, 2006 4:12 PM EST reply actions

Actually

Through trade we could definitely find someone "desirable." There are plenty of teams looking for guys like Duncan and Enc for the price that we have them at instead of overpaying someone else. The free agent pool of pitchers is so bare, we might as well go after someone like Zach Duke, etc.

Acquire Barry Zito!

by aet15 on Dec 5, 2006 4:29 PM EST up reply actions

Pirates would laugh at Walt...

if tried to offer the likes of Dunc or Enc for Zach Duke. Pitching is worth far more than cheap outfielders.

Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Dec 5, 2006 4:58 PM EST up reply actions

Um

I don't know if you've been reading what the Pirates want, but they're looking for a player exactly like Duncan in return for one of their pitchers. The Pirates are specifically looking to deal one of their young pitchers for a young slugger . . . So no, they wouldn't laugh at that.

Acquire Barry Zito!

by aet15 on Dec 5, 2006 5:53 PM EST up reply actions

The thing I like about Batista

is that his salary wouldn't be wasted in the playoffs. He has a history of working out of the 'pen, and it would make some sense to move him there for the postseason to set up, and use the other four guys in the playoff rotation--unlike your average signing of a back of the rotation guy for slightly too much money, this signing would actually help you in the regular season and in the postseason. Still, that seems a lot of money to spend on a middle tier guy, especially since it really only leaves the cash to go and get another middle tier guy.

Unless some of the medium level salaries on the team (the usual suspects of Enc and Looper, etc.) are being pacckaged for someone...

by Valatan on Dec 5, 2006 4:15 PM EST reply actions

Here is the trade off

A 3 year deal for Batista and someone else for around 14 to 16 million or

a 3 yar deal for 14 to 16 million for Jason Schmidt.

Which is the better choice?

by JMedwick on Dec 5, 2006 4:19 PM EST reply actions

That's not the reality...

Schmidt will get 4 years at least, and even if we offered top dollar there's good reason to believe he wouldn't come to St. Louis.

Jocketty can't risk having all the league average guys snapped up while he waits for someone who might not want to sign with the Cards.

by guayzimi on Dec 5, 2006 4:29 PM EST up reply actions

If the money is right

he'll come to St. Louis.

by ryanisforever on Dec 5, 2006 4:30 PM EST up reply actions

not necessarily

randy wolf took less money, fewer years to play in los angeles. ditto adam kennedy --- he accepted a lower offer to play where he wanted to play.

obviously i'd rather have schmidt than a couple of bums. the cards chase a pitcher like schmidt every year, and they always come up short. it's probably gonna take 4 yrs / $60m to get schmidt --- and he's not gonna be a sweetheart about it, like carp was, and defer a bunch of the money.

realistically, i don't see it happening.

by lboros on Dec 5, 2006 4:38 PM EST up reply actions

I Too

can see that Schmidt is a long shot, but alot depends on who the other players are. If the Cards are bidding against the Cubs and Mariners, I think the Cards can offer a bit less in dollars or years and make a deal that will be attractice to Schmidt if he really want to play for a winner. If the Dodgers are involved, as is reportedl then making such a deal is more difficult.

Either way, my point was that, the Cards should not make a short armed offer to Schmidt and then go long on Basita. If they are going to go long, then step up for both and make a serious run at Schmidt, not some half-@ssed 10 million a season offer that won't get it done.

by JMedwick on Dec 5, 2006 4:55 PM EST up reply actions

the dodgers are already involved

and whoever drops out of the zito bidding will get involved in short order. also, the red sox will jump right in if they can't sign matsuzuka. . . . those negotiations might drag on for quite a while, leaving the cardinals with no fallback in the (very likely) event of failure.

a $7m / yr contract for batista wouldn't necessarily preclude a schmidt signing; they'd still be $10m under the $100m cap for this season, and they can always bump that to $105m if they really want to --- or dump salary (looper).

but i just don't believe this is a fight the cardinals are committed to winning.

by lboros on Dec 5, 2006 5:09 PM EST up reply actions

Quote

" I just don't believe this is a fight the cardinals are committed to winning"

that is probably the most important factor in all of this and what bothers me. They should not be involved if they are not commited to making a real offer.

by JMedwick on Dec 5, 2006 5:30 PM EST up reply actions

not to get hopes up

but apparently joe strauss thinks they are committed to it . . . .

http://www.stltoday.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=424317&start=0

of course, we heard exactly the same sorts of stuff last year about aj burnett. . . . . the cubs are still in the bidding, and they're nuts. i'm still skeptical the cards can prevail here.

it also says here that la russa is serious about using looper as a starter . . . . .

by lboros on Dec 5, 2006 6:34 PM EST up reply actions

matsuzaka

the BoSox only had a month to negotiate with Matsuzaka. i don't know exactly how long it's been, but they can't have more than 2 weeks left, and last i heard the two were very far apart.

the BoSox might just ditch Matsuzaka and go for Schmidt.

by kindred on Dec 5, 2006 6:12 PM EST up reply actions

What I don't get is

Why the Royals want to spend big $$$ on this guy?

by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 5, 2006 4:32 PM EST reply actions

Idea

Throw $10-12 mil in a one year deal for Weaver. Overpay, but only one year. Wait until next year to land a long-term #2.

by SirVLCIV on Dec 5, 2006 4:47 PM EST reply actions

but...

We keep waiting on a #2. Every year we go after somebody and lose out. See 2005 AJ Burnett. We have Duncan and a strong bullpen to trade with, lets go and get who we want now instead of pushing everything back a year.

Play hard, play to win, but make it fun!

by Edmonds is baseball on Dec 5, 2006 4:54 PM EST reply actions

We had a #2 in 2005...

Mark Mulder, he was a pretty damn servicable #2. He just happened to get injured / sucky for 2006.

Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Dec 5, 2006 5:04 PM EST up reply actions

Suppan comparison

The problem I have with Larry's Suppan comparison is their relative ages: Suppan was 29 in his first year in St. Louis, while Batista would be 36. If we're talking a three-year deal, we should anticipate significant decline.

I'm not crazy about this one. I think I'd rather have Weaver back if the price is roughly the same.

by DCGreg on Dec 5, 2006 4:57 PM EST reply actions

Another comparison consideration

While Suppan might be viewed as league-average, that only applies to the regular season. In all three years with the Cards, his postseason numbers reflect an ERA fully 1.00 lower than his regular season ERA. Not to mention two huge game 7 victories.

Looking back, this was an awesome signing by Jocketty. He picked up a league-average innings-eater who turned into a post-season performer.

Batista is basically league average - does he have the makeup to perform in the playoffs?

by wildman on Dec 5, 2006 5:08 PM EST up reply actions

batista in the playoffs

2001 nlds: 1 start (v stl), 6 ip, 3 h, 2 r, 1 w, 4 k --- win
2001 nlcs: 1 start (v atl), 7 ip, 2 h, 3 r, 2 w, 3 k --- loss
2001 ws: 1 start (v nyy), 7.2 ip, 5 h, 0 r, 5 w, 6k --- n.d.

2002 nlds: 1 start (v stl), 3.2 ip, 5 h, 4 r, 3 w, 1 so --- loss

3 quality starts in four tries . . . . career postseason era of 3.55.

by lboros on Dec 5, 2006 5:16 PM EST up reply actions

That's encouraging

He clearly was on his game in 2001 and one would think at his age he'd retain that composure. That was 5 years ago.....

I'm ok with Batista as long as we do our best to get someone better. I agree with you that Schmidt is probably going to get out of our price/value range at some point. Too many teams with too many dollars to spend. Am I being unrealistic to think that we could pick up someone via the trade route to give Carp some backup?

I agree with your comments on defending champs need to retool & upgrade, and see the rotation as the best place to do that (after all, pitching wins). I just don't want to give up on a real upgrade here.

I like Wainwright/Reyes' potential - do you think they're ready to step up a notch this year for the entire season? That would be fun to watch if it's a real possibility.

by wildman on Dec 5, 2006 5:24 PM EST up reply actions

if not now, when?

they're both gonna be 25 years old next year. half of the tigers' 2006 w.s. starting rotation was younger (bonderman, verlander). by that age, mulder already had 50 big-league wins. jeff weaver had 33 wins. carpenter had 24; suppan had 20. hell, even jason marquis had 14 wins, and 40 big-league starts, by that age.

point being --- these guys aren't kids. they are big leaguers, and they're talented. throw 'em out there and let them pitch.

by lboros on Dec 5, 2006 5:53 PM EST up reply actions

What would you project for them next year?

Point taken on age and talent level. In terms of thinking about year-over-year improvement, do you think Walt is looking at it this way (presuming no other starters)?

Carp -> Carp (same)
Mulder -> Wainwright (improvement)
Suppan -> Batista (same)
Marquis -> Wells (can it be worse?)
Ponson/Weaver/Reyes -> Reyes (better)

I hadn't thought about it this way, but we're already upgrading. Someone like Schmidt would be a serious upgrade - if we put him in for Batista we should be better across the board.

by wildman on Dec 5, 2006 6:40 PM EST up reply actions

But you have to remember

that Izzy might not be ready for the start of the season. If you move WW to the rotation who would you want to close. Looper? Kinney? Thompson?

by Tarheel85 on Dec 5, 2006 6:50 PM EST up reply actions

Closer by committee

to include Dotel if they pursue him.

That being said, WW in the rotation presumes that Izzy is available opening day. To your point maybe he won't be - presumably Walt has a better fix on that than we do!

by wildman on Dec 5, 2006 6:55 PM EST up reply actions

Tony would want another reliever, maybe dotel

and Looper would probably close. And I could live with Looper closing if it is just for a month or two while Izzy's rehabbing.

by Valatan on Dec 5, 2006 8:27 PM EST up reply actions

exactly --- they're upgrading from within

a guy like schmidt would make the upgrade all the more intense.

i think it's safe to put wainwright down for 30 starts and a 4.50 era; he's certainly capable of better, but if he posted a 4.50 era and won 12 games he'd be extremely valuable at his salary.

reyes i think can be better --- era near or below 4.00. the trouble there is i don't know if he can be counted on for 180 innings. last year he threw about 160 innings between memphis and st louis, plus 12 innings in the postseason (and was still looking pretty strong). his arm held up all year, although he might have been fatigued in september (remember the dbacks game??) . . . . .

by lboros on Dec 5, 2006 6:53 PM EST up reply actions

in the postseason...

commentators said that Reyes had worked out a kink in his delivery that had him tipping his pitches in september. Then he pitched in the world series, i believe (or was it first in the LDS?).

so i am not sure that september was fatigue at all, or if it was mechanics.

by HoosierCardFan on Dec 6, 2006 1:33 AM EST up reply actions

pitching

apparently here is the answer to our pitching needs.

by gdowdy3 on Dec 5, 2006 4:58 PM EST reply actions

tell me this is from "The Onion"

That's not an actual article about LaRussa thinking that Looper, Kinney, and/or Thompson may be in the starting rotation, is it?

by tdawg on Dec 5, 2006 5:02 PM EST up reply actions

No way in heck...

I hate every bit about that article. Looper wasn't exactly getting love from LaRussa/Duncan last year down the stretch, and now they want him to test waters as an SP? You're kidding me. Kinney as an SP interests me, though.

Every Cardinal second baseman should be required to have a mullet.

by Hot in Herr on Dec 5, 2006 5:09 PM EST up reply actions

Man, that's

just crazy talk. Hopefully it's emanating from the writer's mind and not LaRussa's. Ug.

by rockin redbird on Dec 5, 2006 5:10 PM EST up reply actions

Can you think of any reasons why?

Some of the rooks have started in the minors.

Did Looper start in the minors?

Does his stuff somehow more suit a starter?

I can't really think of a reason. Unless TLR is just messing with people. "Ah, we don't need starters. Don't worry about us. Oh, I'm sorry. We've already signed that guy."

by sdrone on Dec 5, 2006 5:32 PM EST up reply actions

Looper as Starter

He hasn't started since advanced A-ball in 1997. He's got a bad platoon split, so you can't be too optimistic about his ability to start.

A lame ploy to boost his trade value?

Could see Thompson or Hancock starting, in a pinch.

by liam on Dec 5, 2006 5:55 PM EST up reply actions

you nailed it

They are fishing. It is apparent who they are dangling. Looper & Kinney. It's also just like LaRussa to say screw these over priced mid levels we'll use whoever we got and they'll get us by. His thought probably was hey, if it sticks in on GM's head, in this pitching starved environment it's worth it. I bet Looper jumped 5 feet out of his la-Z-boy when he heard that.

"The good Lord was good to me. He gave me a strong body, a good right arm, and a weak mind." -Dizzy Dean

by vince eating tarp on Dec 5, 2006 8:30 PM EST up reply actions

i agree...

i think they're passing the free agent market goodbye (maybe taking a 2nd tier starter) and posing for a pre-season Jocketty trade. I almost wonder if they're going to sign a dotel and allow wainy to move into the rotation...owuld seem a cheaper way to free up wainy. either way, we're not going to have another Fassero experiment with Looper.

by HoosierCardFan on Dec 6, 2006 1:38 AM EST up reply actions

dude

has 1, maybe 2 pitches in his arsenal. say wah?

"Go Crazy, Folks! Go Crazy!"

by erik on Dec 5, 2006 6:20 PM EST up reply actions

Look who the Cards are considering as potential

starting rotation members:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=mlb&id=2687438

by steve in georgia on Dec 5, 2006 4:59 PM EST reply actions

Doh! gdowdy beat me to it.

by steve in georgia on Dec 5, 2006 5:00 PM EST up reply actions

Why a strong #2 behind Carp?

I was thinking about this while in the car.

Why do we need a killer #2? Sure, I'd like it as much or more than anyone here.

Did we have it in 2004?

Did we have it this year?

I agree with the analysis that says you need K pitchers to win the playoffs. However, I also know that the playoffs are a crapshoot.

I like a #2 that's a groundball pitcher who keeps his composure and can go 8 innings.

That does not mean I endorse Batista. Heh. also, if we do not make a splash in EITHER pitching or hitting, I'd call it a mistake.

by sdrone on Dec 5, 2006 5:03 PM EST reply actions

good comments sdrone

i would add this: the cards have two high k/9 starters already. they're named reyes and wainwright.

by lboros on Dec 5, 2006 5:11 PM EST up reply actions

Those 2 definitely

figure into my reasoning. Either or both has the capability to have a WS game 1.

by sdrone on Dec 5, 2006 5:24 PM EST up reply actions

Batista would be a good fit in St. Louis

He's no star but he is comparable (though a few years older than ) to Suppan when we first signed him. He throws ground balls and would do quite well here.

I'm a little concerned about the age and innings. Last year was his 1st year of 200 innings (206) though he hovered around 200 in '04 and '03. And I don't think we can count on Reyes or Wainwright for 200 next year. They're probably close to 180 each, Wells if we're lucky will give us 170 to 180 so that puts a pretty good sized toll on our bullpen. With Reyes and Wainwright in the rotation, I'd feel better w/ more of an innings guy than Batista is. But he would definitely be a better sign than Meche, Lilly, or Suppan at $10 million plus. And better than Padilla at $11 million plus!

by chuckb on Dec 5, 2006 5:21 PM EST reply actions

And better than Looper!

by tdawg on Dec 5, 2006 5:25 PM EST up reply actions

Tony's comments

You think maybe, just by some strange chance in hell that Larussa's comments about Looper, Thompson, and Kinney were just "misunderstood" and that is not what he meant.

PLEASE GOD I hope that's what it is.

Play hard, play to win, but make it fun!

by Edmonds is baseball on Dec 5, 2006 5:36 PM EST reply actions

I think they

along w/ the rumors about Batista are intended to tell Jeff Weaver that we are about ready to move on. If he wants to stay, it's time to jump on board or he can go where Boras tells him to go. I don't believe for a second that there is a whiff of truth that any of those relievers might end up in the rotation. No way.

by chuckb on Dec 5, 2006 5:43 PM EST up reply actions

Great point

Houstoncardinal.

They signalled yesterday what the ceiling for an ace was. They signalled today with this leak what the ceiling for Jeff Weaver and Mark Mulder is.

More great tactical maneuvering by Master Jocketty.

by Red in Chicago on Dec 5, 2006 5:47 PM EST reply actions

Maybe

This is a message that the Cards will not bend over backward to sign someone (Schmidt or Batista) and that they should flush or get off the pot.

The Cards way of saying. "Final Offer" without saying it.

by Harknights on Dec 5, 2006 5:48 PM EST reply actions

Tell me this isn't true

If Batista is really what we are going to end up with for our #2, then we will be lucky to finish in 3rd place next season in the Central.

I would rather just go with a youth movement next year than sign a washed up reliever to be our #2 guy next year. Uugh!!

by KYCards on Dec 5, 2006 5:50 PM EST reply actions

And should the Cubs

...of all teams end up with a rotation of Zambrano, Schmidt and Prior, I'll be pissed. That would be one hell of a 1-2-3 punch if Prior regains his early form. It sounds like their going to end up with Lilly, whom curiously the Cards never seemed to have serious talks with. It seems to me like Lilly is a much better fit for St. Louis than Wrigley.

Baily

by Baily on Dec 5, 2006 10:23 PM EST up reply actions

Garcia Rowand rumor

ok mlbtraderumors has this one being talked about. If philly lands Garcia they have extra arms, but I'm thinking 2 things...

Is rowand available? not sure who cards could give with"garcia" talent, but hes a heck of a young scrappy guy and right now more ready than rasmus for jimmys replacement

Garcia wouldnt be a bad option either in the rotation he is streaky at times, but if my memory serves has been very solid in CHI.

i'll hang up and listen

Kenny is a "dirt" bag?

by punchinjudy on Dec 5, 2006 5:56 PM EST reply actions

if you scroll down

it also talks about the possibility of Philly trading Jon Lieber for Kevin Mench. I'm not really interested in Lieber at $7.5 mill. He seems to be past his prime. Garcia's interesting but they want relief help or good pitching prospects or a CF. Walt should call the White Sox but the deal for Rowand sounds better to me if I'm the Sox.

by chuckb on Dec 5, 2006 6:08 PM EST up reply actions

Agreed

I'd make a Garcia for Rowand trade if I'm the Sox GM and I'd make the same trade if I'm the Phils GM. Good deal for both teams filling need.

Baily

by Baily on Dec 5, 2006 10:25 PM EST up reply actions

New Bits from Bernie

La Russa is serious about using Looper as a starter; he's even talked to Looper and his agents about this and they're good with the idea.
Schmidt: down to Cardinals, Dodgers, Cubs and to a lesser extent, Mariners. Strauss talked to his agent.... thinks that he will accept a 3-yr deal... Strauss thinks they have an excellent chance to get him... unless they really lowball on the offer. Thinks Schmdit will make a decision by end of the week.
Cardinals seem to be moving in on Octavio Dotel for the bullpen...very serious interest.
They are (as we know) down to the wire for Miguel Batista... probably won't make the final push until Schmidt makes a decision.
Some interest in Aubry Huff...

by bdief on Dec 5, 2006 6:08 PM EST reply actions

I wouldnt mind

Huff, i have been wondering what other postition players they might seek...Id like to see a few role guys and one everyday guy, but thats just me...all rumors have been arms...

Kenny is a "dirt" bag?

by punchinjudy on Dec 5, 2006 6:14 PM EST up reply actions

no Huff

a few thoughts...

if the idea is to start Looper in order to leave AW in the pen, then these guys are idiots.

if the idea is to start Looper because there isn't a place for him in the pen anymore, then these guys are idiots.

if the idea is tell people that they may start Looper in order to trade him, then they're idiots, because that makes no sense at all.

if the idea is to get Looper ready to pitch in the rotation in case Wells, Reyes, or somebody washes out, then we're screwed.

if there are better reasons for this that i'm missing, someone please clue me in.

i still expect Schmidt to get 4 years. but if the Mariners are off the board then i think the Cards might actually have a good shot at him.

Dotel is interesting... i'd especially like it if it allows AW to move to rotation.

Carp
Schmidt
Wainwright
Reyes
Wells

i think i'm in love with that rotation.

by kindred on Dec 5, 2006 6:21 PM EST up reply actions

Me too

But I'd be in love with anything that starts out, "Carp-Schmidt"

Baily

by Baily on Dec 5, 2006 9:50 PM EST up reply actions

No Huff

Interesting post over at SBNation site for Astros that concluded he wasn't all that great:

http://www.crawfishboxes.com/story/2006/12/3/181749/639#commenttop

Let's look in other places.

by wildman on Dec 5, 2006 9:44 PM EST up reply actions

Huff

Huff is wanting a big $$$ contract. He's not worth it. I would rather re-sign Preston Wilson for a 2 million 1 year contract than Huff for 2-3 years. Huff is really over-rated. He was horrible with Houston last year.

If we could get Huff for one year and really cheap that's one thing, but he isn't looking for a "really cheap" contract.

by KYCards on Dec 5, 2006 6:21 PM EST reply actions

decisions, decisions for

Batista. Really, why would you want to play in KC? Batista will be a Redbird by noon tomorrow.

"Go Crazy, Folks! Go Crazy!"

by erik on Dec 5, 2006 6:22 PM EST reply actions

Maybe he thinks...

He feels like he could write better poetry there. (Buy and read Fantasyland if you don't get that reference)

by bdief on Dec 5, 2006 6:25 PM EST up reply actions

Love Fantasyland

Batista has also written a novel, i believe something like a murder mystery...very cerebral kinda guy. maybe he'll even hit us up with a word of the day.

"Go Crazy, Folks! Go Crazy!"

by erik on Dec 5, 2006 6:37 PM EST up reply actions

THIS IS A WAR!!

That neither side wants to win.

I say bring him to KC, where I can begin a mythical question to interview him about his poetry favorites (I'm serious, I'm totally down) on Royals Review.

Of course, old-school "winning comes from character" Dayton Moore may not approve of extra-curriculars once he's in blue and white, other than, of course, the ubiquitous religionizing.

Ohh the drama of this bidding war!!!

www.royalsreview.com

by Freneau on Dec 5, 2006 6:31 PM EST reply actions

I have to say I'm all for leaving Wainwright

in the pen.

Sure, Izzy's supposedly ahead of schedule, but does that guarantee he'll be ready to pitch opening day? Or for that matter multiple days in a row?

What if he has a setback in late april and the Cards were using Wainwright as a starter? What then?

IMO, get 5 starters (not including Wainwright). If Izzy's fine, then great. We've got a surpluss, which is a good thing. Plus, if they do sign Batista, he's proven he can pitch out of the pen...and close.

by Big Red on Dec 5, 2006 6:46 PM EST reply actions

Looper would merely

be reprising Ponson's role. This is the backup plan, I suppose. But it's also good information for the agents and players looking for spaces because it says the Cards aren't desperate.

Not that I really believe it, mind you.

Questions:

Is Schmidt/Batista an either/or situation? Can they really afford both?

Is there a trade for an impact bat to follow?

How do you give up bullpen talent for an "impact" bat? If not bullpen talent then what, exactly?

by Red in Chicago on Dec 5, 2006 6:48 PM EST reply actions

I have no data

But just on gut feeling I don't want Batista or Dotel. Neither of those guys strike me as the types of guys I'd want on my team. But, then again, neither did Suppan when we got him a few years ago. Just promise me no Looper in the rotation next year (or the bullpen, or Busch Stadium for that matter).

Miguel Batista writes poetry.

In Albert we trust.

by Mr Redbird on Dec 5, 2006 7:00 PM EST reply actions

dotel

most pitcher signings are a bit scary but often turn out well--like julian tavarez . . . that looked like a trainwreck waiting to happen--with all the history between matty mo, matheny, and tavarez but he turned out to be a valuable guy . . . you never can tell

by SprfldCards on Dec 5, 2006 7:44 PM EST up reply actions

In an ideal world...

we would sign Weaver and Schmidt, rather than Batista and Schmidt - but if signing Batista brings us Schmidt, then that's nice. How dominant could a rotation be of:

Carp, Schmidt, Reyes, Weaver, and Wells?

Two number 1 types, two high threes, and a solid 4.

by Toddius396 on Dec 5, 2006 7:04 PM EST reply actions

That rotation

...would sell plenty of tix and create plenty of excitement. I'd also like to see Mulder retained with a big incentive based contract for a potential mid-season pitching boost. It would just be good insurance in my book. I can't believe he can be any worse than last season and feel he's got a lot of good outs left in him. Given his injury status last year, I have to believe he'd even be willing to start his "comeback" as a long reliever and spot starter. Of course, I may be off-base in that regard. I know he'd rather sign with a team where there's no chance he'd be used in long relief.

Baily

by Baily on Dec 5, 2006 9:48 PM EST up reply actions

from will carroll at BP

"A nice deal was put together by Walt Jocketty and the Cardinals to lock up Chris Carpenter at below-market rates. They'll fill out their roster card with similar deals. Somehow, St Louis seems to get more for less than any other team."

by PGeorge @ Viva El Birdos on Dec 5, 2006 7:34 PM EST reply actions

Per Matt Leach

at his blog

I'm just now sitting down to write my stories, but here are the relevant points from today thus far...

Cards consider themselves a serious player for Schmidt, and Schmidt's agents consider them serious suitors. Neither side seems to think it will be a problem that STL doesn't want to go more than three years.
Cards are close, but not imminent, on a deal with a reliever. They're looking at three guys, one of whom is Dotel.
One option they are considering for '07 is to move Braden Looper to the rotation. Yes, Looper.

Azruavatar, rejoice! Nice to hear we're right in the thick of it, though I think he might be headed to LA.

Wonder who the other 2 mystery relievers are

"Go Crazy, Folks! Go Crazy!"

by erik on Dec 5, 2006 7:59 PM EST reply actions

Mystery Relivers

Looking at the available relief arms:

Rudy Seanez: Good strikeout ability; but walks too many, is old, and walks too many

Matt Herges: Keeps the ball in the park, closer experience, cheap!

Darren Oliver: Lefty swingman with nice peripherals, good platoon split, inexpensive, could start in a pinch.

Alan Embree: veteran lefty with K-ability.

We have a boatload of lefties already and Oliver would probably push Narveson down the depth chart and through the waiver gauntlet. Embree would be a nice pickup if we trade away Flores. Aside from the hometown thing, Herges doesn't look like much of an improvement over anyone currently in the bullpen. If healthy, Seanez would be a good setup man.

Flores spike in walks last year is somewhat troubling. A trio of Narvie, TJ, and Oliver would be appealing from the left side.

My guess is the mystery relivers are Darren Oliver and Rudy Seanez.

by liam on Dec 5, 2006 9:29 PM EST up reply actions

cautiously optimistic

if we sign Schmidt to a three year deal that would be utterly amazing given the market. The only comparable pitcher talent wise (zito) could be fielding 6 year offers.

$$$ are rarely the problem on big contracts. It's the years on a contract dependent on projection. Here's hoping we keep the years down on Schmidt.

Looper in the rotation is relatively ignorant if they then leave Wainwright in the pen. That would be an indefensible move imo. I'd rather test drive Tankersley or Narveson than have Looper start. That seems like it's asking to fail.

Acquire Jason Schmidt!

by azruavatar on Dec 6, 2006 12:14 AM EST up reply actions

Looper as a starter....

Means "Looper invited to spring camp conditioned to start, to add to the Camp's competition." You know how Tony likes to fire everyone up in March.

Duncan's approach could be for any number of reasons. Looper's throwing hard, but has control issues. Would extra conditioning after his Lubrum surgery help control?

Bottom line is no one's starting next year if they truly stink. Keep the faith.

Per Matt Leach's blog

Cards consider themselves a serious player for Schmidt, and Schmidt's agents consider them serious suitors. Neither side seems to think it will be a problem that STL doesn't want to go more than three years.
Cards are close, but not imminent, on a deal with a reliever. They're looking at three guys, one of whom is Dotel.
One option they are considering for '07 is to move Braden Looper to the rotation. Yes, Looper.

to crush your enemies, to see them driven before you....and to hear the lamentation of the women!

by cardsnutincali on Dec 5, 2006 8:04 PM EST reply actions

Yeah, that would never happen

"Bottom line is no one's starting next year if they truly stink."

cough*Marquis*cough

by effin fisk on Dec 6, 2006 11:08 AM EST up reply actions

I hate it...

...when that happens!

to crush your enemies, to see them driven before you....and to hear the lamentation of the women!

by cardsnutincali on Dec 5, 2006 8:05 PM EST reply actions

it happens

no problem...can't wait to see how the Schmidt thing unfolds.

"Go Crazy, Folks! Go Crazy!"

by erik on Dec 5, 2006 8:10 PM EST up reply actions

If we dont sign Schmidt...

Then I would like us to get Batista AND Dotel AND a solid OF bench bat like Jay Payton.

Does someone have a link to the roster matrix with Carp's 2007 incentives guaranteed? Dont we have like 16.5mm left?

2006 Cardinals- An underdog story

by Born in 82 on Dec 5, 2006 8:09 PM EST reply actions

You mean Schmidt happens?

Well, I can't see why he would go to the Cubs, so I guess that just leaves L.A. in the running.

by Red in Chicago on Dec 5, 2006 8:14 PM EST reply actions

A guy at the Birdhouse

Is throwing Boston trade rumors around for Looper....

to crush your enemies, to see them driven before you....and to hear the lamentation of the women!

by cardsnutincali on Dec 5, 2006 8:22 PM EST reply actions

any idea

on who they'd get in return?

"Go Crazy, Folks! Go Crazy!"

by erik on Dec 5, 2006 8:26 PM EST up reply actions

J.D. Drew??

to crush your enemies, to see them driven before you....and to hear the lamentation of the women!

by cardsnutincali on Dec 5, 2006 8:31 PM EST reply actions

Hmm

Do you think Drew is worth giving up a starter? :)

"The good Lord was good to me. He gave me a strong body, a good right arm, and a weak mind." -Dizzy Dean

by vince eating tarp on Dec 5, 2006 8:34 PM EST up reply actions

Maddux

is a Padre

Here Comes the King! Here Comes the Big #1! Budweiser Beer the King is Second to None!

by OKCardsfan on Dec 5, 2006 8:50 PM EST reply actions

That is even weirder than him being a Dodger

by Valatan on Dec 5, 2006 8:54 PM EST up reply actions

1 yr 10mil

Here Comes the King! Here Comes the Big #1! Budweiser Beer the King is Second to None!

by OKCardsfan on Dec 5, 2006 9:14 PM EST up reply actions

2 years, actually

year 1 is guaranteed $10mm
year 2 is players option at $6mm with vesting that could take it up to $10mm

Good signing for the Pads in pursuit of a postseason run, but I agree: Maddux as a Padre? Weird.

by wildman on Dec 5, 2006 9:39 PM EST up reply actions

Here's a link

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/9851920

by wildman on Dec 5, 2006 9:40 PM EST up reply actions

TERRIBLE

MIGUEL BATISTA SUCKS AND HE'S ALREADY 35! GET A REAL PITCHER! PAY WEAVER'S RANSOM! 110 K's AGAINST 84 WALKS! IN 206 INNINGS!

If Jocketty signs this loser I'm boycotting. Not that I think he'll care. This is poor...

"Enamored" takes the preposition "of," not "with."

by MKDCardinal on Dec 5, 2006 8:55 PM EST reply actions

Serenity now

he's been above league average since 2001. He's been pitching in a pitchers' park in the most offense heavy division in baseball. In fact, his whole career, he's played in pitcher-friendly confines.

Relax. You'll feel better.

by Valatan on Dec 5, 2006 8:58 PM EST up reply actions

TERRIBLE

MIGUEL BATISTA SUCKS AND HE'S ALREADY 35! GET A REAL PITCHER! PAY WEAVER'S RANSOM! 110 K's AGAINST 84 WALKS! IN 206 INNINGS!

If Jocketty signs this loser I'm boycotting. Not that I think he'll care. This is poor...

"Enamored" takes the preposition "of," not "with."

by MKDCardinal on Dec 5, 2006 8:55 PM EST reply actions

it's even funnier the second time

by effin fisk on Dec 6, 2006 11:10 AM EST up reply actions

We all need to clam down

I know that the thought of a Carp-Schmidt-Reyes-Wanright-Wells rotation is exciting but lets not get too crazy.

Schmidt is going to command close to $15MM so he is still a longshot. We are always the bridesmade in these FA competitions. But on the real field, we are the World Series Champions.

2006 Cardinals- An underdog story

by Born in 82 on Dec 5, 2006 9:05 PM EST reply actions

tell us how you really feel

MKDCardinal! :D

by lynx on Dec 5, 2006 9:07 PM EST reply actions

World Champions

sweet

to crush your enemies, to see them driven before you....and to hear the lamentation of the women!

by cardsnutincali on Dec 5, 2006 9:08 PM EST reply actions

I think it is funny

How everyone evaluates every single "rumor" that gets thrown around. I think we just need to sit back, and let Walt and co work their magic.

There is a reason why Walt doesn't come out looking stupid on almost every single one of his deals... He plays mind games and uses the media in his favor. If the fish doesn't bite he reels her in and tries again. He only lets the media know things if it works in his favor.

Contemplating who we would like to see on the team is fun.. but after its all said and done think of all the rumors that just turned out to be that, a rumor. I think we all know we will have another quality team next year, and we expect nothing less. Walt has brought us to the playoffs 6 out of the last 7 years. Let the genius do his thing!

by El Hombre on Dec 5, 2006 9:09 PM EST reply actions

We are

World Series Champions. 2006. The best team in baseball. The whole kit n' kaboodle.

sweet

to crush your enemies, to see them driven before you....and to hear the lamentation of the women!

by cardsnutincali on Dec 5, 2006 9:10 PM EST reply actions

I love you man

to crush your enemies, to see them driven before you....and to hear the lamentation of the women!

by cardsnutincali on Dec 5, 2006 9:11 PM EST reply actions

Jim Edmonds

held the World Series Trophy above his head near the 3rd base dug-out on Oct. 29 and shook it up and down as 48,000 people cheered.

sweet sniffle

to crush your enemies, to see them driven before you....and to hear the lamentation of the women!

by cardsnutincali on Dec 5, 2006 9:20 PM EST reply actions

Drew to Bosox: 5 yrs. $70mm

Can you believe it!

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061205&content_id=1751676&vkey=hotstove 2006&fext=.jsp

I guess trading in that 3 years/$33mm really did work....

by wildman on Dec 5, 2006 9:29 PM EST reply actions

Schmidt

If we can get him for 3 years, even by overpaying, it's worth it. 3 year max, without a no-trade clause.

by SirVLCIV on Dec 5, 2006 9:38 PM EST reply actions

I count 4

Let's wait and see. According to the rumor mill we have made offer's to Suppan, Weaver, Schmidt and Batista. The only way we getting into a bidding war for Batista is we are out of the running for two of the others.

I figure we have three slots filled. I figure that based on AW staying in the pen. If AW is a starter then we only have two spots open with four offers on the table. So lets all relax and wait to hear about those other offers.

by nybirdfan on Dec 5, 2006 9:42 PM EST reply actions

i can't count

we have two slots open. One if AW stays in the pen. I am product of the New York State education system.

by nybirdfan on Dec 5, 2006 9:44 PM EST reply actions

Batista?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/batismi01.shtml

How about these comparables? A bunch of burnouts at 36 and some guys forced into the bullpen to make a living. Pass.

All my friends became Cardinal fans and grew up happy and liberal. I became a Cub fan and grew up imbittered and conservative." -- George Will

by wannabeGedman on Dec 5, 2006 9:45 PM EST reply actions

I want to say

once more how great this site is. It's this time of year when ridiculousness is in large supply. But here there is largely intelligent debate. I don't always agree with everyone's ideas or trade proposals, but at least it's not something from fantasy baseball.

Spending 5 minutes on the stltoday boards makes you wonder if you're interacting with 8 year olds or the criminally insane! Some of the trade proposals are so ridiculous they defy comment.

Thanks Larry, Val, Erik and everyone else who keeps this site at such a high level!

by chuckb on Dec 5, 2006 9:45 PM EST reply actions

In case you're wondering, it's the internet

so it's 8 year olds.

by sdrone on Dec 5, 2006 10:06 PM EST up reply actions

AJ one year later

Given current market conditions, and even considering he missed a chunk of the year (again) on the DL - what do you think had we signed Burnett last year for 4/44 or whatever it was he got?

by ribbij on Dec 5, 2006 10:10 PM EST reply actions

5/55 with an opt-out after '08

He'll probably have two damned good seasons for them and earn a sick contract in 2009.

Unrelated, but... Leach just posted an article with two notes at the bottom. All the coaches from the 2006 team are returning (Hal McRae included.) The Cardinals are adding a second rookie-level affiliate in the Gulf Coast League to become the fourth club with 7 domestic affiliates, joining the Mets, Orioles, and Royals.

by liam on Dec 5, 2006 10:28 PM EST up reply actions

Love the farm system investment

I sense our ownership/management steering more toward player development than in past years. Emphasizing the draft more, adding another minor league affiliate, not trading away our key prospects recently.....

Part of the new economic reality in baseball. Kind of funny how things come full circle. Prior to free agency, farm systems were key - looks like we are headed back that way again.

I like it. When you see what free agents - regardless of talent - are going for, more home-grown talent would sure be nice.

by wildman on Dec 5, 2006 10:40 PM EST up reply actions

Youngsters

Sorry to reply to my own message, but the more I think about it, if we want to have core guys like Pujols, Carpenter, Edmonds, Rolen, etc. and occassionaly pursue "difference makers" like Larry Walker or Schmidt, we have no choice but to get cheap talent to fill a number of slots. Guys like Wainwright, Reyes, Duncan, TJ, Kinney, etc. will be critical in offsetting the mega-contracts that "franchise" players receive.

by wildman on Dec 5, 2006 10:43 PM EST up reply actions

That's Luhnow

It makes all the sense in the world... It's the conventional wisdom now that positional players peak around age 27—before they've got enough service time to reach free agency for all but the fastest maturing players. Taking that claim to its logical (and admittedly specious) conclusion, free agency becomes a practice of paying princely prices for players past their prime. No farm system can consistently produce players at every position hitting their peak, but your system needs to produce at least one or two a season to stay in the elite levels.

Unfortunately, as David Pinto pointed out this morning, the Yankees and Red Sox are cultivating their minor league affiliates more lovingly after having realized this. Scary.

As an aside, I'd be interested to see one of the serious baseball writers like David Halberstam or even Rick Hummel write a book about the Venezuelan and Dominican developmental leagues that almost every MLB club owns. I'm enjoying baseball too much these days to think that ten years from now I'll look back on this era as a time when teenagers in those leagues were aggregiously exploited—I'd like to know what happens to a 17-year old Venezuelan kid who blows his arm out while training with the Venezuelan Summer League Cardinals.

by liam on Dec 5, 2006 11:03 PM EST up reply actions

coaches

Huh. Miklasz always made it sound like a given that McRae wasn't coming back. Maybe a World Series changes things.

On a different note, I find it odd that the article suggests that moving Wainwright (or Looper) to the rotation would leave the bullpen short, given Kinney's emergence. Assuming Izzy is back at or near the start of the season, if Wainwright goes to the rotation, the righty list still includes Thompson, Kinney, Izzy and Looper. Presumably that gets supplemented by a Hancock/replacement type as the long guy. Lefties are in overabundance: Johnson, Flores and Rincon. Adding a Dotel really makes sense only if someone's getting traded.

by DCGreg on Dec 5, 2006 10:43 PM EST up reply actions

If Walt were to trade with Baltimore

...for Kris Benson, any chance Walt could get Corey Patterson and get rid of JuanE in the same deal?

Baily

by Baily on Dec 5, 2006 10:30 PM EST reply actions

Id take the

corey project not sure how he did lats yr, but i think he can field a fly ball just the hitting was a problem for the cubbies right?

Not sure what all thsi looper nonsense is about but it scares the daylights out of me..

Kenny is a "dirt" bag?

by punchinjudy on Dec 5, 2006 10:43 PM EST up reply actions

Would it surprise you

To learn that aside from stolen bases, Juan put up better numbers than Patterson in 2006? He was more durable and—remarkably—showed better plate discipline.

Patterson blew him away in the SB and SB% departments, though. And Encarnacion's statistical edge over Patterson is far too slim when the comparison is between a center fielder to a corner outfielder.

Encarnacion's production would be pretty good if he were a CF—in a market when much worse CF's are getting five-year contracts in the 9 to 10 megabuck range, you gotta like your chances of moving him. An Encarnacion for Benson/Patterson wouldn't make much sense for either team, though.

by liam on Dec 5, 2006 10:44 PM EST up reply actions

wouldn't surprise me

Patterson belongs in AAA. in fact, last time I saw him play he was an Iowa Cub.

by madding on Dec 5, 2006 10:51 PM EST up reply actions

but... but... but...

Encarnacion is the worst player in the majors!!

He has less baseball ability than my sick grandma!

Surely you're not implying that there is another player of similar ability out there...

by Valatan on Dec 5, 2006 10:54 PM EST up reply actions

except

DUNCAN. Every fly ball is an adventure.

by DuncanDipper on Dec 5, 2006 11:29 PM EST up reply actions

Duncan

Duncan is the Izzy of the outfield. He just finds a way to get it done... most of the time.

by TNFan32 on Dec 5, 2006 11:33 PM EST up reply actions

i like it

he's baby Dunc and mini Izzy all rolled up in one.

and the morlboro man...

by effin fisk on Dec 6, 2006 11:15 AM EST up reply actions

Wow

After all of the weird talk about SP pitching the last few days, am I the only one just throwing his hands up in the air in digust and saying "Eff it, Put Waniwright in there!"?

He's cheap, he's talented... I dont care if we wouldn't have a "closer" (such an arbitrary term now... Thompson/ Kinney would probably do close to if not just as well as AW or Izzy if given the opps) for a month or two, having Wainwright in the rotation for around 500K when guys like Padilla and Soup and Wolf and Lilliy and Meche will be getting around 10 mil a year is a steal. And he will probably out perform the lot of them.

(By the way -- the hot stove really knows how to take the worry-free luster off of a World Series trophey, no?)

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Dec 5, 2006 10:56 PM EST reply actions

No

Huh-uh....it doesn't

to crush your enemies, to see them driven before you....and to hear the lamentation of the women!

by cardsnutincali on Dec 6, 2006 1:38 AM EST up reply actions

FWIW

I think my choice would be Schmidt and Weaver (if possible). Batista doesn't excite me, but we do need someone, and we could do worse. I'd also like to see Mulder back if he would sign a low guarantee contract w/ incentives. BTW, what would consitute a low guarantee/incentive laden contract these days? Are we talking $1-2M guaranteed, or more like $4-5M?

by ArkansasTravs on Dec 5, 2006 11:43 PM EST reply actions

Batista

Per mlbtraderumors.com the Royals got Bannister from the Mets for Burgos. We may have won on Batista... that or the Royals are stocking up on mid-back rotation guys. I'm not excited for Batista... I cant stop thinking about that time he and Tino got into it.

by TICY on Dec 6, 2006 12:22 AM EST reply actions

What??????

"Hawk" Harrelson is a finalist for the Frick award this year?

Wow....just wow...

"Fortunato had done me a thousand wrongs, but I had borne them as I best could. But when he ventured to insult me publicly, I vowed revenge."

by iron duke75 on Dec 6, 2006 12:51 AM EST reply actions

you can...

... put it on the boooaaaarrrrdddd!!!! YEAH!

by kindred on Dec 6, 2006 1:15 AM EST up reply actions

occasionally...

... my dear wife, when a character gets killed in a movie, goes "he gone".

effing hilarious.

by kindred on Dec 6, 2006 1:16 AM EST up reply actions

I still can't grocery shop

without saying "Can-o-corn.... right side" when in the canned veggie section.

Love him or hate him, he has added some stupid pharses to the american lexicon. That's about all a broadcaster can really ask for these days...

Much like a tiny worm blosseming into a large cobra.

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Dec 6, 2006 1:29 AM EST up reply actions

Living in Chicago...

I get so sick of Hawk. Easily one of the most annoying broadcasters this side of Tim McCarver (the baseball John Madden or Joe Theisman or Bill Walton...all very annoying).

by Big Rev on Dec 6, 2006 1:30 AM EST up reply actions

Bill Walton

Now THAT guy makes me want to ram salad forks in my ears

to crush your enemies, to see them driven before you....and to hear the lamentation of the women!

by cardsnutincali on Dec 6, 2006 1:40 AM EST up reply actions

I have never in my life before or since

wished so hard for a meteor to land on a broadcast booth as I did during our series with the White Sox in June. And of course, I got stuck with the White Sox feed on MLB.tv for all three of those games. That series was painful enough anyway...listening to "the Hawk" made it unbearable...

On the bright side, Dizzy Dean and France Laux are also among the finalists...

"The thousand injuries of Fortunato I had borne as I best could, but when he ventured upon insult, I vowed revenge."

by iron duke75 on Dec 6, 2006 1:38 AM EST up reply actions

Schmidt et al

Interesting comments from Joe Strauss this morning:

From Schmidt's agent:
"When a player has been successful for a long time and he starts thinking about the end of his career, they start trying to map out when they want to quit playing," Hendricks said. "They've done well enough financially that they feel set. So the next decision is less about accumulating all the money they can. It's more about what seems to work best, all things considered. I will actually hear from players, 'I don't want the longest contract you can get.'"

This one's encouraging:
"Jocketty described the Cardinals' position as "flexible" regarding Schmidt. Club sources indicated general partner Bill DeWitt recently eased budgetary constraints."

A lot in the shopping cart....
"The Cardinals have standing three-year offers to Schmidt, Miguel Batista and Jeff Suppan. The Mets continue to have interest in Suppan, who continues to attract strong interest, including latecomers Toronto and Houston. A source familiar with talks said that "the status quo" exists between the NLCS MVP and the Cardinals. The Redbirds' offer to Schmidt is believed between $10 million and $11.5 million a season. The Cardinals are laying the foundation for a Looper experiment by discussing one-year contracts with free-agent relievers Octavio Dotel and Dan Kolb."

Is that enough to get Schmidt? If the choice is Suppan at $10mm or Schmidt at $11.5mm that's a no-brainer! I think it will take more than $11.5mm for Schmidt. That's the first time I have seen Kolb's name. There's either a lot of smoke here from Walt to make us look like we have a lot of options, or there's a trade in the offing.

Here's the link:
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/E2F6F90E961299EB8625723C0021410F ?OpenDocument

by wildman on Dec 6, 2006 6:17 AM EST reply actions

It's not enough, but

the article also says the offer to Schmidt "could be sweetened by week's end, according to sources familiar with negotiations."

by DCGreg on Dec 6, 2006 7:20 AM EST up reply actions

Didn't the Cubs already offer Schmidt 3yrs/$44mil?

Or should I doubt this brief report?

http://www.rotowire.com/roto_to_gnews.htm?ID=206260&sport=mlb

by Don Zero on Dec 6, 2006 8:56 AM EST up reply actions

McRae and rest of coaching staff staying

Bernie had dropped hints that McRae would not be back, but unfortunately it looks like he will:

http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061205&content_id=1751982& ;vkey=news_stl&fext=.jsp&c_id=stl

by outraged on Dec 6, 2006 7:04 AM EST reply actions

Batista, Ohka, etc.

From Joe Sheehan's chat (still going on, I believe) at Baseball Prospectus today:

Matt (Cambridge, MA): Joe -- Any word on where Miguel Batista will end up? I had read somewhere that there was a bit of bidding war for his services between the two Missouri teams. If, as rumored, Batista is looking to get 3years, $24MM would the Cards be better off looking at a Tomo Ohka type?
Joe Sheehan: Ohka is worth looking at regardless. As a veteran offspeed guy coming off of an injury, he fits a lot of Duncan/La Russa markers. Put him in front of a strong Cardinals defense, and he could throw 190 innings of 3.90 ball. He doesn't look that much different than Jeff Suppan did three years ago.
I got a good report on his shoulder yesterday, and I'm even more confident that he's got "bargain" written all over him.
With that said, I think Miguel Batista is a better pitcher than Adam Eaton, and if you can get him for Eaton money, you do it. Like Ohka, he'd look good pitching for the Cards.

by holden on Dec 6, 2006 12:09 PM EST reply actions

Network Bar

Viva El Birdos -

cards hot after batista

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