carpenter extended
per matt leach --- the cardinals signed carpenter to an extension. he's a cardinal through 2011, with a club option throug 2012. more to come ASAP.
Update [2006-12-4 17:26:56 by lboros]: initial thought, before learning anything about the dollars involved: one thing that jumps right out at me about this deal is that it's a five-year commitment to a pitcher. the cardinals have rarely been willing to consider anything longer than 3 before when dealing with free-agent pitchers. it's a measure of how highly the organization values carpenter: they broke their own rules for him.
Update [2006-12-4 17:32:49 by lboros]: as reported by associated press:
Update [2006-12-4 17:44:28 by lboros]: further news: the package, without the option year, is worth $65m --- which means the three years from 2009-11 are worth $65m minus $16m, or $49m --- an average of $16m a year. no hometown discount; that's the current market rate for aces (zito's being offered $17m a year by the rangers). but the diff'nce is that carpenter will be making that money two years from now, by which time the going rate for aces may be at $20 million . . . .
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Best news i've heard...
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Dec 4, 2006 5:00 PM EST reply actions
brilliant
Carp
Can't imagine life without Carpenter in a year.
by its in the cards on Dec 4, 2006 5:03 PM EST reply actions
Excellent
His World Series performance is already one of my favorite Cardinal memories, and will be for a long time
it will be interesting to see what this does
Sweet
Great News
by viva el rojo pajaro 42 on Dec 4, 2006 5:10 PM EST reply actions
no you're not
pleasedontgethurt pleasedontgethurt...
Either way I love the guy. Makes me wanna buy a carp jersey.
My wife bought me one
I wanted a Rolen jersey, but I have this slightly uneasy feeling he might be getting shopped around, or might not be here more than a couple of years...
By the way, I am officially the easiest person that my family can shop for. I want EVERYTHING Cardinal World Series 2006 related.
by BozCardsFanSF on Dec 5, 2006 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
Cards are playing the Civil Rights game next year
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Dec 4, 2006 5:11 PM EST reply actions
civil rights game
by cards4ever on Dec 4, 2006 5:16 PM EST up reply actions
Memphis wasn't his hometown
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 4, 2006 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
$65
The Cardinals have extended Chris Carpenter through 2011 with a club option for 2012. The deal is worth about $65 million.
Carpenter had been signed at $7 million for 2007 with an $8 million option for 2008. The Cardinals will now pay him $9 million in 2008 as part of the new agreement and added three guaranteed years plus a club option for 2012. If the new option is exercised, the deal would be worth about $77 million.
by JxMetal on Dec 4, 2006 5:12 PM EST reply actions
Sorry
by JxMetal on Dec 4, 2006 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
wow
think it's a little higher
by mikedallas23 @ Viva El Birdos on Dec 4, 2006 5:26 PM EST up reply actions
Math?
2008 $9mm
2009 $16.33mm*
2010 $16.33mm*
2011 $16.33mm*
2012 $12mm option
* $77mm total less 2007, 2008 and 2012 option ($77mm less $65mm) divided by 3
New Math
Even before considering 8% yearly inflation for MLB salaries, this looks like a good deal. If some of that salary is "pension" from 2020-2029, it's a fantastic deal.
less than Oswalt
although I'll always be frightened by a 5 year deal for a pitcher. But I guess this is the type of player you have to commit to...
Prelude to something else?
amen wildman
by duckymedwick7 on Dec 4, 2006 5:18 PM EST up reply actions
Great move...
Especially....
by JxMetal on Dec 4, 2006 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
and I
by Toddius396 on Dec 4, 2006 5:46 PM EST up reply actions
Certainly thought they could and should wait
I'm glad to see him rewarded though.
I don't know...
Carp would have been silly
Yes...
Albert...
I am not so sure
Brilliant move by Jocketty...
carp still giving us a discount
by stlspecialsauce on Dec 4, 2006 5:36 PM EST up reply actions
Cardinal discount
Reading between the lines on his interviews, Carp likes the team, the style of play, the commitment to winning, etc. and wants to stay a part of it. All due respect to the great city of St. Louis, I would term it a Cardinal discount instead of a St. Louis discount.
Jumpin ahead a bit, but...
I'm basically 100% sure it'll be Oquendo
I think he wants to manage the Cards and should be Tony's successor.
by Big Red on Dec 4, 2006 7:35 PM EST up reply actions
Will Oquendo break Red's record,
and if I'm not mistaken
by Big Red on Dec 5, 2006 12:05 AM EST up reply actions
To extend the prelude thought....
That's what I was thinking
"Hey, Carp - we'd like to pursue another horse to join you in the rotation. But you are our #1 guy and we don't want to offend you in any way. Let's talk about an extension and for you as our priority - then we'll see what we can pull off in the FA or trade market."
Or something like that....
Thank God...
That last thread on Pujols' MVP comments was driving me to actually do some work.
Seriously though, one barrier to signing a well-regarded FA pitcher was that it would be unseemly to pay anyone more than Carp. This was a prerequisite to signing someone else.
Somewhat related question
$15MM in St. Louis
$18.5 in Chicago
$25MM in LA
$32.5MM in Manhattan
$23 in Queens
Just a thought that popped into my head.
I thought
by Just Rope Ball on Dec 4, 2006 5:53 PM EST up reply actions
True...
You bet
by rockin redbird on Dec 4, 2006 7:32 PM EST up reply actions
oh man that's tough
(if you couldn't tell, enter sarcasm)
by stlsportsfan on Dec 4, 2006 8:55 PM EST up reply actions
Carp has a house in U City
interesting
I've often thought that too
it's possible...
for example, some recent economic research shows that people who live in suburbs and commute to work in cities save little or no money because of the increase in transportation costs. in effect, they are trading the added time cost inherent in commutes for a perceived savings in rent that really isn't there. (obviously, there may be other concerns... often suburbs are safer than cities, have better schools, etc.).
obviously, if Pujols spends 1 million dollars to help kids in Dominican Republic, it's the same as if Big Papi spent 1 million in one sense: in the DR, that one million can buy the same bundle of stuff.
but Pujols' million would go further in St. Louis, or Kansas City (wherever he lives), so the net effect is that he is actually giving up "more" money by donating.
now, some of that is mathematical; Kip Wells probably isn't going to spend all 4 million bucks directly in the areas in St. Louis that are less expensive than NYC, so his salary isn't really worth twice as much as if he'd signed with the Yankees. a lot of these ballplayers have permanent residences in places other than their team's home city, so it doesn't really matter (too much) what the cost-of-living disparity is.
yadda yadda. in brief, the disparity is there, most likely no one considers it, and most likely the effect isn't as great as some academics would have us believe. at least for ballplayers.
Right,
Also, don't think that the Texas and Florida players benefit that much from the "no state income tax". I'd bet that is pretty much made up in other taxes such as property tax, sales tax, etc. It's been a number of years now, but when I moved from Texas to Arkansas, my property taxes dropped by ~1/2 even though my new house was roughly 1.5 times the value of the one in Texas.
by ArkansasTravs on Dec 4, 2006 11:21 PM EST up reply actions
I agree lboros...
Some of his comments indicate he's a nervous nelly when it comes to his injury. He wants security over trying to maximize his income.
The question is, how do the Cards keep paying cut rate prices for these guys while everyone else pays top dollar?
Jocketty
Not necessarily a discount...
Additionally, Carp gave us one heck of a discount once to repay the team for rehabbing him and keeping him in baseball. I saw an interview once where he said he was going to hang it up. He was injured with no contract. The Cardinals took a low-cost chance on him and kept him in the game.
It seems to be a love-love relationship.
And, at the end of his time in Red...I bet you can take his overall price per win share and still be blown away at the value vs. dollar we will have gained from him.
The other day on a Brewers board, some of the Brewer fans were commenting on how the Cardinals kept the big stars happy and plugged holes with role players and how they thought it's how a team should operate. I was proud.
Signing Carp now keeps him happy and thwarts the temptation to test the market.
Timing
Wow did Espn
the guy cannot buy a break...albert never speak again it only harms you, then they will accuse you of being surly...hmmm just quit baseball and be a mime no one ever gets angry at them...ok bad analogy
enough of this stupid talk
sorry
no worries punchin
Strauss report via Bernie
still monitoring Schmidt...
More focus on Padilla and Batista ...
front-runners for L. Gonzalez, but price may be getting too high...
Strauss thinks they will make a trade this week; could be part of a 3-way.
--B
pavano would be nice
by stlspecialsauce on Dec 4, 2006 6:04 PM EST up reply actions
If and only if you can get Cashman to
This rotation has the ability to perform very well or fall flat on its face with many, many DL trips. I'd rather have something a little more certain for one of the slots 2-5. Someone who can be counted on 180IP and league average production.
Soup!
See Jeff Suppan.
Too bad he wants 10 mill...
by TheFranchise9 on Dec 4, 2006 10:00 PM EST up reply actions
Makes total sense
and
by Toddius396 on Dec 4, 2006 6:19 PM EST up reply actions
Keep in mind the crazy NY media spin
This is the time
my off the cuff reaction
I've been stewing on this for a bit
Even assuming that two years from now (or one year) ace's are getting 20M a year...I still don't like it. There was no reason to extend now. It's one thing to make a 4 year offer in the effort of landing a player (Burnett) it's another thing entirely to give a 4 year guaranteed extension to a pitcher with an injury history when you have him under control for 2 more years.
This seems like the Edmonds extension (which I defended - and still would on the grounds that he's a position player and it merely added a year past the option) only gratuitous in length. Maybe I'm missing something . . .
i see your point...
- the organization wants to send a message: we take care of our own. they've taken heat over the past few years for letting Grudz, Sanders, Matheny, and others walk away for relatively small differences in money. the extensions for Edmonds, Carp, Spiezio are all probably a bit more extravagent than they need to be, but none are completely outrageous. this deal for Carp - extending him when they didn't have to - is sending a message.
- the organization has had an impossible time trying to land a premier pitcher since Kile. they've gone after just about every big name to hit the market, and have no been successful at all. this guarantees them a front-line starter for years. yes, there's a bit of an injury risk, but you can't get a big-name pitcher for less money than Carp got, and all of these guys have some sort of injury history ('cept Zito, but he may be declining).
- marketing. having the top position player in baseball (Pujols) and one of the top-5 pitchers in baseball (Carp) is good for business. i'm not sure how good it is, exactly, but it's got to count for something.
- inflation. if inflation figures continue at about 3%/year for the next 5 years, those last three years (16.3 mil per) will really cost the team 15.8, 15.3, and 14.88 million (in 2006 dollars, if i did the math right). not a huge difference, but a noticeable one.
- flexibility. the team doesn't have a whole lot of payroll flexibility right now, but they'll have more in the future. the expensive parts of the deal doesn't kick in until Izzy's money is off the books. they seem set in keeping AW in the bullpen, so they won't be paying another closer 8-10 million. similarly, Edmonds' contract will be off the books after '08. if Rasmus does end up as an everyday player, the team will be saving a lot of money at a premier position. in addition, the flood of A and AA pitchers that we've got could yield some substantive, and cheap, future options. if we project that we'll have Reyes + two other youngsters in the rotation in two years, there is a substantial savings from the recent "pay a vet 5 mil a year to fill the rotation" strategy.
- silence. i'm sure DeWitt/Jock got sick of fans complaining all year about not having enough payroll. this is their answer. if they can get one more big (or "big-ish") acquisition, then fans should be ecstatic with this team. the happier fans are, the more money they spend.
- reality. honestly, barring an injury, the Cards were going to pick up Carp's '08 option anyway, and Carp was going to meet all incentives. so, really, the team is only paying for three extra years at 16 million per (less inflation, rising market value, etc.). and i'm sure they've got some insurance out on his arm, so if he can't play they'll recoup some of that money.
i did do the math wrong...
using the inflation calculator available on the Bureau of Labor Statistics web site (www.bls.gov), if inflation levels remain constant for the three non-option years ('09, '10, '11), Carp's contract will be worth 14.86 mil, 14.53 mil, 14.3 mil, respectively, in 2006 dollars.
if inflation follows recent history, that 12 million option for 2012 is actually only worth 10.24 million.
inflation might not stay the same, but the deal looks more affordable if that assumption holds true, especially since Lilly is going to get 11 million a year for 4 years.
plus...
not only that, but if the Cards wait another season to negotiate, they can expect to have to pay an extra 10% for each season that is extended. if they wait until after exercising Carp's '08 option, that'd be over 20% increase per year, if Hardball Times is correct.
in the case of front-line starters, the inflation may be greater. but even at a somewhat lesser inflation rate, the deal still makes a lot of sense.
the more i think about it, the more i like it.
Nate Silver...
The thing is...
Guessing on the final 3 years, Carp's deal is, in millions, $7, $9, $16.3, $16.3, $16.3 over 2007-2011 seasons.
Oswalt's is $13mm, $13, $14, $15, $16.
In addition to being $8mm less overall, Carp's deal is far more club friendly b/c it's heavily backloaded, so when you do discount, it's actually more than $8mm less in present value. Also, the 2012 options are $12mm for Carp, $16mm for Oswalt. Again, advantage Cards b/c the $12mm could be quite a bargain.
Carp is 2 years older and has the medical question, but Oswalt's build and delivery are frequently cited as a blowout waiting to happen. They're roughly equivalent risks.
If the Cards had waited a year and Carp had turned in another gem in 2007, obviously Carp's price would climb: there would be only a year to go before free agency and the time period for a major injury would be halved.
You gotta take some chances, and I think this was a decent one.
I follow what you and kindred are saying
My problem isn't the dollars, it's the length of the contract. Why add on 4 more guaranteed years 2008-2011 when you have him next year and a no risk option in 08 (meaning no commitment beyond that). I like Carpenter. He's a damn good pitcher but there's a reason the organization has held to not giving pitchers long term contracts.
And the distinction that is important is that they weren't trying to just acquire a player. Burnett asked for more years and had leverage. Carpenter's leverage is, imo, minimal at this point. I'd rather see a contract that maybe vested in the future based on IP. Even if it was something like 2010 vests if he reaches 180IP in either 2008 or 2009, 2011 vests if he reaches 180IP in 2009 or 2010. It's the length of the guaranteed commitment that seems unnecessary when he's still under our control.
There's a huge projection that's going on here by guayzimi and kindred (and the Cardinals for that matter) on several fronts. 1) Carpenter stays healthy through 2011 2) he maintains near his performance level through 2011 3) we can balance his contract with youngsters like Rasmus 4) we won't sign other big contracts like Izzy in the future.
It's just too much projection for too long imo.
sure...
we can still sign big contracts. not only won't we be paying 9 million/year anymore, we also won't be paying Mulder's 9 million, Marquis' 5 million, or Suppan's 5 million. after '08, JED is off the books. there's still room to sign other players.
i guess we can agree to disagree. i think the risk isn't outrageous, and that this deal will look amazingly affordable after guys like D-Train get done decimating the market in the next few years. i might be wrong. but i can't dislike this deal out of an assumption of injury history/performance decline. i've got no reason to believe those things will happen, so i'll stay positive.
i think, in time, that this will end up being a great deal for the Cardinals.
Hmm...
If you're smart and lucky you may be able to draft these guys, pick them up off the scrap heap, or get them in the rule V draft, but ultimately they require lots of years and money to keep around.
you and kindred both make great points
that's right...
Carp didn't have Tommy John surgery
by Big Red on Dec 5, 2006 12:08 AM EST up reply actions
Player profile from BP
1999 - elbow surgery to remove bone spurs
2003 - shoulder surgery to remove scar tissue
You're right. Thanks for catching that. Not sure where I picked up the TJ surgery idea but it's definitely wrong. It looks as though his injuries were directly due to blatant misuse but I think the risk is still there.
what if
would that make you make you happy azruavatar? :)
by dabirds on Dec 4, 2006 7:47 PM EST reply actions
option buyout
I played around with the numbers a bit, and the best I could come up with was this:
2007 $7mil
2008 $9mil
2009 $14mil
2010 $15mil
2011 $16mil
2012 $16mil ($4mil buyout)
The $4mil buyout seems high, but then again, Pujols' 2011 option is also $16mil but with a $5mil buyout.
FWIW, I love this deal. He's already underpaid for the next two years, and we didn't give that up. For the 4 extended years, it seems like it's right about what he'd be worth as FA in today's market (maybe less), but by signing him for that now, we avoid paying him market rate for a FA ace in 2 years, which will almost certainly be higher.
buyout
Cardinals offers out
Scott Miller over at CBS Sportsline provides a whole lot of hot stove buzz in his latest entry. Some highlights:
The Cards have offers out to Jeff Weaver and Jeff Suppan.
couple that with what else was being reported, the Cardinals have offers on the table for Jeff Weaver, Jeff Suppan, Jason Schmidt, Padilla and Bautista.
Any combo of Weaver, Suppan, Schmidt would make me happy.
I think one thing the
as long as
Carpenter=Favre
Let's hope that Carpenter is more like Tom Brady....or for that matter, let's hope that Albert Pujols is like Bill Russell. Or at least Michael Jordan
Touche
Padilla
whoa...
i still can't believe that. put Narvie in the rotation, man.
I hope we make an effort to resign
sorry a little late
atttttaboy walt!!!!!!
by black3ram on Dec 5, 2006 3:08 AM EST reply actions
I have a question.
Jocketty denied the extension suggested another high-dollar signing was imminent. But Jocketty insisted that the club would not sign any pitcher to a deal that would offer a higher average annual value the next three seasons.
Jocketty did not offer details of any bid, but it is believed the Cardinals offered Schmidt more than $10 million a year.
Huh?
Does that mean higher than the value of the extension? It must, right? Carpenter's average annual salary for the next three years is right at $10mm or so.
According to that same article
2007 8.5
2008 10.5
2009 15.3
2010 15.3
2011 15.3
2012 12
That's around 11.4 over the next three seasons.
Carp and the CY
NO CY Young Award = Much less $$$
I was quietly hoping that he would not win the award for that reason. One Cy Young is enough, what I want is multiple World Series Rings!
by Born in 82 on Dec 5, 2006 9:18 AM EST reply actions
On that note....
He put up MVP numbers, just didn't get the hardware.
Albert will be due for another contract in 4 years. Who knows how much it's going to cost. 5 MVPs would cost a lot more than 2 or 3.
It's the only way I can talk my self into not being pissed about this year's vote.
by El Birdo Rojo on Dec 5, 2006 9:25 AM EST up reply actions
I was always kind of glad for the
And I'll be even happier if he doesn't get a contract this offseason
Maddux?
Carpenter
Maddux
Reyes
Wainwright
Wells
Am I crazy?



















