Soup a Brewer

Will he be overpaid in Milwaukee?

Or was he underpaid in St. Louis? Count me among those would say the latter. He gave us a lot for what he was paid over three years.

He may end up being overpaid in Milwaukee, but I see no reason to believe he will not continue to be durable and dependable. Might make the Brewers a true contender.

by Fred McTaggart on Dec 24, 2006 4:40 PM EST reply actions

Both

He called fate's bluff on a cool New York night, October 19th, 2006.

by Number47 on Dec 24, 2006 5:10 PM EST up reply actions

Both

He was underpaid in 04-06. However, he is not worth 10+ to the cards for 07-10. If given a chance Thompson should be able to match his numbers in 07 for less than 10% of the cost.

by DriverZn on Dec 24, 2006 6:59 PM EST up reply actions

not a chance

Much of Cradinal nation barely had confidence in letting Thompson throw 15 pitches. He will not perform as a starter anywhere close to Suppan. Wishful thinking.

At least Suppan did not go to the Mets.

by age3in82 on Dec 25, 2006 2:51 PM EST up reply actions

Actually...

Other than that crummy stretch early last year, Thompson has been pretty good. He has good sinking stuff, and I think he'd do quite well as a starter if they give him a chance.

by matt reeder on Dec 25, 2006 3:33 PM EST up reply actions

$$$$10.5

That is actually less than what I thought he would sign for. If it would have been 2/21 I would have done that. I just don't see him being worth 10.5 mil in years 3 and 4.

by BSell81 on Dec 24, 2006 5:23 PM EST reply actions

Per mlbtraderumors.com

We signed Ankiel to a minor league deal.

I'm still on board despite any reason to be.

by TICY on Dec 24, 2006 5:43 PM EST reply actions

Really?

Hell, I'd take him over Juan "And it rattles around in the corner for another triple..." Encarnacion in right any day... ]:->

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Dec 24, 2006 5:56 PM EST up reply actions

Unless you live in Springfield,

you haven't even seen Ankiel play outfield. His hitting is still pretty rough, although it does show some power potential.

Yeah, let's start him.

by Valatan on Dec 24, 2006 7:25 PM EST up reply actions

Well...

True, I haven't seen Ank play outfield.

But I have seen JuanCar.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Dec 24, 2006 7:49 PM EST up reply actions

Would you just pay no attention to batting stats and award the MVP to the hitter who looks best? John Olerud had a really nice-looking swing, but all things considered I'd say Jim Edmonds was a better hitter, however awkward he looks when he strikes out.

Juan Encarnacion is a good outfielder; it just makes sense. If he can play an adequate center, why wouldn't he be a good right fielder?

by DanUpBaby on Dec 24, 2006 8:34 PM EST up reply actions

ummm....

The 'Rick Ankiel over Juan Encarnacion' thing is a cute little joke, right?

by Fitz on Dec 24, 2006 9:56 PM EST up reply actions

Yes.

Of course it was. But I simply can't pass up a good opportunity to "air my grievances" about Juan.

Although with Ankiel's talent, I am hopeful that he'll make a good outfielder for us someday with enough practice. He'd certainly have the arm for right field, too...

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Dec 25, 2006 12:40 AM EST up reply actions

The problem is that midway through the season

he'd start throwing balls for the cutoff into the left CF gap.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 25, 2006 12:41 AM EST up reply actions

I give up...

...why wouldn't Juan be a good rightfielder?

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 25, 2006 12:38 AM EST up reply actions

haha

defensive metrics be damned... on a day-to-day basis, i fail to see how Juan is any better than average.

and he's a horrible CF. he may not boot balls, but he doesn't get to many either. he plays on the goddamn warning track.

by kindred on Dec 25, 2006 5:08 AM EST up reply actions

Stats.

JEnc is a case where defensive metrics don't show how poor an outfielder the guy truly is.

Bench Juan Encarnacion!

by STLCardinalsFan on Dec 25, 2006 11:50 AM EST up reply actions

Yes. You've got it.

he's the worst player in history. He envies Mendoza. He has no place on the Royals' roster, much less the Cardinals'.

by Valatan on Dec 25, 2006 12:01 PM EST up reply actions

Congrats!

Nice to see we're on the same page...

Bench Juan Encarnacion!

by STLCardinalsFan on Dec 25, 2006 5:50 PM EST up reply actions

I've still

got your back Val...We can make a pro Encarnacion coup in VEB...
start a movement or something

Meche.

by Dttl89 on Dec 25, 2006 8:50 PM EST up reply actions

In true Juan fashion...

...you should get this thing half started and then just give up on it.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 25, 2006 9:58 PM EST up reply actions

Crud.

Well, Merry Xmas to Suppan and the Brewers. At least we get the two draft picks, right? :-(

I would NOT have been as keen on signing Suppan for 4 years at >$10M per, but there's no way he could turn that down. This was his "sell high" moment, and he earned it. Good for him and his family.

I wish him well, although I certainly hope we don't catch him in the rotation when we visit MIL...he's always dominated in their park.

I see the Brewers even have an option for a 5th year. Wow.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Dec 24, 2006 5:53 PM EST reply actions

Brewers staff...

... if they can stay healthy, the Brewers have the best staff in the NL Central, and possibly in the whole NL.

Sheets
Capuano
Bush
Suppan
Vargas

Suppan might be the worst of the five. and the Brewers will have control over all of them for a few years, i believe. if they can bring that young offense around, they might be a team to be reckoned with.

by kindred on Dec 24, 2006 6:26 PM EST reply actions

That's right

Everybody knows pitching--particularly quality starting pitching--is the name of this game and the Brewers made a good move to solidfy an already pretty darn good staff. I don't think they overpaid. That seems to be a fair price in today's market and I can only seeing the market rising even higher next year and the year after. It appears on paper to me the Brewers just got themselves into the playoffs if they're not DL prone.

Baily

by Baily on Dec 25, 2006 10:34 PM EST up reply actions

Sorry to see him go but not at 10.5

Loved Soupy's competitiveness and pitching style but not having StL's defense behind him will bloat his ERA by 3/4's of a run if not more.

Now I'd love to see Mulder resigned. Young, athletic, 6'6" lefties who possess Cy Young stuff are a rare commodity. Chris Carpenter will be the first to tell you that a guy can regain effectiveness even after a surgery.

Carp and Albert were robbed in '06.

by BillyChainGun on Dec 24, 2006 6:53 PM EST reply actions

Mulder

Could go either way. There are many that think his altered mechanics are what did in his shoulder. Unless he fixes these I don't expect him to ever return to his previous form.

However, coming back from a major injury pitchers often have to re-learn how to throw. That gives him a chance to correct himself.

My best guess odds:
20% chance he gets back to 20 win form.
50% chance he gets back to 2005, junkballer form.
30% chance he is done as an effective pitcher.

by DriverZn on Dec 24, 2006 7:03 PM EST up reply actions

Odds sound about right

And I'd be willing to argue he's definitely worth a two-year contract for them. There's a 70% chance you get a better pitcher than the Cubs got for (presumably) less guaranteed money and fewer guaranteed years.

Plus more valuable in trades (higher upside, southpaw).

At this point, from what I've read, I'd be surprised if he doesn't return to the Lou.

by liam on Dec 24, 2006 8:00 PM EST up reply actions

Makes no sense, really

Doug Davis asked for 3/21 and they said no, but wanted Soup at that price.

by RedbirdRay on Dec 24, 2006 7:18 PM EST reply actions

It's not very smart...

but I swear teams sign guys based on what they see first hand.

Suppan is 12-2 lifetime against the Brewers with a 3.29 era. At Miller Park in 7 starts, he's 5-0 with a 1.29.

Come to think of it, I remember LaRussa saying he wanted Soup from the day he threw a CG shutout against us when he was with the Pirates. This is why we should've traded Mulder to the Mets for Milledge after that 8 inning gem he tossed last May. I think Minaya would've gone for it at the time...

Acquire Jason Johnson!

by guayzimi on Dec 24, 2006 8:17 PM EST reply actions

and...

... we would've crucified Jocketty if he'd done it.

by kindred on Dec 25, 2006 5:09 AM EST up reply actions

doug davis

looks likes he is going the wrong way...not saying he'll be worse than suppan this year but the periphials are getting worse...wouldn't mind seeing what dunc could do with him though

by johnstjc @ Viva El Birdos on Dec 24, 2006 8:46 PM EST reply actions

Wells

Just looked up Kip Wells and he posted a 3.28 and 3.58 in consecutive years with terrible Pirate teams. Better than I anticipated.

Any word on what will happen with Rincon??

Sorry for the randomness of this post.

Carp and Albert were robbed in '06.

by BillyChainGun on Dec 24, 2006 8:52 PM EST reply actions

Who's got a tougher job?

Santa, who has to deliver gifts for about two billion children tonight, or...

Danup with his tireless effort to convince VEBers the world over that Juan Encarnacion is, in fact, a decent rightfielder?

Acquire Jason Johnson!

by guayzimi on Dec 24, 2006 9:42 PM EST reply actions

He is a decent outfielder

However, when we have a decent guy we expect him to try harder to compensate. Juan does not do this, therefore he invites our derision.

A walk is a waste of three pitches-Bob Gibson

by orlando card on Dec 24, 2006 9:57 PM EST reply actions

He'd be a decent centerfielder

he's a replacement level right fielder, and according to Fungoes...our worst baserunner.

by RedbirdRay on Dec 24, 2006 10:01 PM EST up reply actions

replacement level right fielder???

I'm not sure where this is coming from... He is an above average right fielder despite some miscues that we remember. It's counter-intuitive to say he'd be a decent center fielder but only a replacement level right fielder unless you don't think he has the arm strength for right field.

His offensive stats would look better in CF but he was still worth about a win over replacement level per VORP. Add his defensive value in right field and he's probably worth at least 2 wins in and of himself. I'm not saying Juan is a fantastic player but he's a worthwhile cog who catches a lot of unwarranted flak.

by azruavatar on Dec 25, 2006 12:32 AM EST up reply actions

Atleast with Duncan, you wonder if he's going to

turn a flyball into extra bases. With Juan, he takes the fun out of it. Ball hit his way is always atleast 1 extra base.

Sometimes, balls that aren't even hit his way he'll make the extra effort to get in someone elses way.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 25, 2006 12:40 AM EST up reply actions

Yep.

Juan Encarnacion, career fielding stats:

0 PO, 0 A 1,235 E.

Even Duncan can do better than that.

by Valatan on Dec 25, 2006 12:45 AM EST up reply actions

He's not quite even

a win per VORP. Subtract the 2.6 runs or so he costs on the basepaths and he's pretty much the definition of replacement level offensively. (half a run over replacement). His only plus is his defense.

Therefore...as defense is his only plus...and his bat would look better compared to centerfielders...and he has history of playing centerfield...he'd be decent centerfielder, but is a replacement level outfielder.

by RedbirdRay on Dec 25, 2006 7:26 AM EST up reply actions

edit

I meant half a win, not run.

by RedbirdRay on Dec 25, 2006 9:17 AM EST up reply actions

OUCH...

Ben Sheets
Chris Capuano
Dave Bush
Jeff Suppan
Claudio Vargas

vs...

Carpenter, Wells, Reyes, Wainwright, and Looper.

Even if we sign Mulder back I am banking on a 3rd place finish at best.

Where is this payroll increase we were told? I feel lied to.

by Pujols for MVP on Dec 24, 2006 10:49 PM EST reply actions

you're joking, right?

by chuckb on Dec 25, 2006 12:45 AM EST up reply actions

Nope.

If everyone is healthy then the Brewers have a nice starting rotation next year.

Bench Juan Encarnacion!

by STLCardinalsFan on Dec 25, 2006 11:52 AM EST up reply actions

I still think

We are in a better spot. How are these teams going to get out from under some of these contrats?

No one can say for sure Sup will be better than Thompson...at least $10M/yr sure.

by Harknights on Dec 24, 2006 11:23 PM EST reply actions

Suppan will be better than Thompson

This is an unquestionable fact.

Thompson will not even win the 5th spot. Please, let's stop talking about Thompson.

by age3in82 on Dec 25, 2006 2:55 PM EST up reply actions

based on?

Seriously, what facts do you base this opinion on?

by DriverZn on Dec 25, 2006 3:41 PM EST up reply actions

Really?!?

Brads projections

ERA 3.39
H/9 8.7 W/9 2.1 K/9 5.4

Now yes that's as a reliever...and I am not saying we should have him as a Starter. All I am saying is that there is no way that anyone can be $40M sure that Sup will be better than Brad. Really. If Sup goes 3 IP and gives up 4 Runs in game 7 against the Mets he gets maybe 3 years $18M. We all know he pitched slightly better than that...but that doesn't change how well he should pitch over the course of the next 4 seasons.

...and again I am not saying I wouldn't have wanted Sup back...Just not at that price. I just don't see how that contract will not come back to haunt the Crew and keep tham from adding a player that they will need.

I think we should remember that having the ability to spend $100M doesn't mean we have to spend $100M. If there isn't a player that can improve the team just save the money for later.

by Harknights on Dec 25, 2006 11:38 PM EST up reply actions

Even if there's only a 51% chance...

that Soup will out-pitch Thompson or Looper next year - I think it's almost certain he'll be better than either of those two next year - isn't it better for you the fan if DeWitt spends his money?

The guy hosted 89 ballgames last year and sold 3.9 million tickets plus an untold number of $6 piss water beers (sorry abstl), and half of Cardinal-dom is rooting for him to pad his checking account. It's not like if he's a cheapskate this year he'll make it up to us by signing all the big names for 2008.

Don't drink the kool-aid! Posting a 110 era+ over 750 innings like Soup has done the last 4 years is damn hard. You can't just take some marginal middle reliever with an average fastball that occasionally sinks and expect above average production over 200 innings as a starter.

Acquire Jason Johnson!

by guayzimi on Dec 26, 2006 12:12 AM EST up reply actions

Cheers!

Thank you Guayzimi for putting this how I should have put it in the first place. I could buy you a few rounds of first-rate microbrews for this post. If ownership's not spending our money, they're putting it in their pockets. There is absolutely no reason why fans should be defending the owners who take their money.

We have been spoiled with excess optimism by heroic performances turned out by young guys in our bullpen. Brad Thompson, however, was not one of these heroes. Unfortunately, neither was Narveson (although I am more hopeful for his future). Until recently, LaDuncan have had a horrible track record with young pitchers. Now suddenly, half of Cardinal nation is ready to bank all (or fiscally very little) on this approach.

It's one thing to want to develop young guys and make them top performers, but you need guys who can work their way out of bases loaded jams with no outs with the game on the line (i.e. Suppan). You also need at least 2 veteran starters with different styles for the younger guys to look up to and learn from. Read some of Reyes' quotes about how the veteran starters helped him or any of the bullpen guys' quotes about Izzy if you disagree.

by age3in82 on Dec 26, 2006 2:10 PM EST up reply actions

DeWitt's money, DeWitt's team

We all obviously want a winner, but spending wisely can get us there without mortgaging the future. To spend money just because they have it won't lead to a better team - poor decisions now mean less to spend in the future. Unless a team enjoys Yankee-like revenues, relying on young talent and "bargain basement" shopping will be critical to sustained success. You automatically pay top dollar in the FA market (with the "winner's curse" lurking our there), leaving it as an option to be used as little as possible. Of course, when we have a chance to lock up Pujols/Carpenter-type talent we should go for it. That's a good return on investment. Four years and $42mm for Suppan? Not a good bet IMHO. He's been awesome for us and I'll miss him, but not that much. Maybe two years at $10mm each or three years at a lower $ per annum - that would have been better (and where I believe that Jocketty was playing).

I believe that Walt is betting that the balance of the $100mm will be better spent sometime between now and the trading deadline, when people are looking to make moves to clear payroll, make room for possible trades, etc. (see mlbtraderumors.com for an example of this with the Mariners, looking to possibly trade Beltre to make room for a run at Zito - we may not want Beltre, but that's what teams do when they're looking to make a move). I hope they continue to be wise stewards of their capital - and our support as fans. They have done a great job the last seven years and have earned my trust that they'll continue to do so.

by wildman on Dec 27, 2006 10:31 AM EST up reply actions

Soup

It's kinda cool in a sense. We got some good years out of Soup, and he used that to get a big payday. Everyone wins.

I'm still going to Soup's Grill on my trip to California this summer.

by Fitz on Dec 24, 2006 11:29 PM EST reply actions

ummm

theyre banking on sheets being healthy, which hasnt been the case for several years, so how do u see us 3rd?

by cjwest20 on Dec 25, 2006 1:09 AM EST reply actions

So lets start a pool

to see when Ankiel and Sheets go down, throw in Prior as well any oft injured pirates or stros? Grifs already hurt for the reds...

Kenny is a "dirt" bag?

by punchinjudy on Dec 25, 2006 2:22 AM EST reply actions

Merry...

Merry X-mas, Yule, Sol-Invictus and all that other stuff.

He called fate's bluff on a cool New York night, October 19th, 2006.

by Number47 on Dec 25, 2006 4:10 AM EST reply actions

Goodbye Soup

You've been great. Thanks for the ring. I hope you do well, just not on the days you face the Cardinals. Be sure to send Dave a big present, because he is the one guy who helped you get paid. Thanks again, and good luck.

Marry Christmas to all, and to all a good night now!!

The 2006 St.Louis Cardinals. WORLD CHAMPIONS OF THE WORLD. My Blog: And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Dec 25, 2006 4:48 AM EST reply actions

I'll second that

except I hope he pitches well against us also. Here's to some good old fashioned, low-scoring games against Supp and the BrewCrew the next few years.

Thanks for the many NLCS memories Supp.

by rmerrill on Dec 25, 2006 9:11 AM EST up reply actions

Big Bad Juan

my season tickets are above the cardinals bullpen, and i'm not sure i can stand another season of juan trying to figure out that tricky right field corner, while slow running catchers are racking up triples on him

by The Butcher on Dec 25, 2006 10:04 AM EST reply actions

I feel your pain

Watching Juan play from any perspective is terrible, but your view sounds particularly painful. Good luck trading up.

by age3in82 on Dec 25, 2006 2:57 PM EST up reply actions

I got my Carpenter jersey!

w00t! (incidentally, I share his last name). It's an away jersey, but that'll make going to Cards' games at Shea better ;)

by SirVLCIV on Dec 25, 2006 10:30 AM EST reply actions

That's cool

I got a World Series Champion t-shirt and hat, two other Cardinals shirts, and an XBOX 360, for those that might care.

by viva el rojo pajaro 42 on Dec 25, 2006 10:56 AM EST up reply actions

And I just looked in my stocking

found a Cardinals World Series gold coin.

by viva el rojo pajaro 42 on Dec 25, 2006 12:23 PM EST up reply actions

I got the same thing

(I asked for it from the wife). Also got the world champs T-shirt, and DVD box set. Even subscribed to Sports Illustrated for all the Cardinals stuff.

I'm debating on whether to go with Rolen or Edmonds as my next jersey, to accompany Albert (home) and Carp (away)

2006 World Champs! Inconceivable! You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

by BozCardsFanSF on Dec 26, 2006 10:11 AM EST up reply actions

I had the Cardinalest Christmas ever!

The official playoff hooded sweatshirt, framed Post-Dispatch front page, Post-Dispatch front page coffee mug, Cardinal Nation book, World Series pin, NLCS program, Cardinal DVD, and last but not least, Diehard Cards, with foreword by Mr. Borowsky. As always, Larry provides a great write-up, very interesting angle on the importance of all the two strike foul balls in Game 2 vs. the Mets. That's the type of insight that makes me visit this site each day.

by MichiganBird on Dec 25, 2006 1:26 PM EST reply actions

The best part of it all....

My father-in-law, who provided many of these things, is a Tigers fan! I could tell it almost broke his heart to see all the STL World Champs stuff under the tree.

by MichiganBird on Dec 25, 2006 1:27 PM EST up reply actions

Awesome

Enjoy rubbing it in.

Be sure to watch the DVD many times while he is over @ your place.

by viva el rojo pajaro 42 on Dec 25, 2006 1:57 PM EST up reply actions

Hawai`i Christmas

I walked outside in my Cardinals championship teeshirt and ran into my neighbor, who was wearing a similar shirt. He gave me a long list of what his wife had gotten by way of Cards presents today. I got the highlights DVD, the greatest games at Busch set, and a Cards bathrobe--having already bought myself Diehard Cards and other items!

Happy Christmas and bon voyage to Jeff Suppan.

by hawaiifan on Dec 25, 2006 7:09 PM EST reply actions

Awesome cardinals gift

I got an amazing cardinals gift! it is a panoramic photo of Busch III right after the WS Championship.

You have to see it for yourself

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/artshowgallery_1929_2351

2006 Cardinals- An underdog story

by Born in 82 on Dec 25, 2006 7:40 PM EST reply actions

thats cool

I know what I'm asking for in April for my Birthday, lets hope its that not starting pitching......

Faith, Hope, and Budweiser 3 things every Cardinal Fan needed this season.

by cyko42 on Dec 25, 2006 11:42 PM EST up reply actions

My christmas present is

on my girlfriends hand....
yeah...gee...the cash in my bank account for an xBox 360 magically turned into a diamond ring....

Oh well...Cards brought home the series

Meche.

by Dttl89 on Dec 25, 2006 8:53 PM EST reply actions

haha

sorry, but when i read that at first i thought it said 'my girlfriends hand'

i apologize, but im sure ur money spent will pay off in the future.

by DuncanDipper on Dec 26, 2006 1:28 AM EST up reply actions

Cardinals DVD

I have one too but noone has mentioned if theirs is narrorated by Billy bob thorton, not sure if they all are or not but mine is i thought that was cool...havent watched it yet.

Kenny is a "dirt" bag?

by punchinjudy on Dec 25, 2006 8:54 PM EST reply actions

billy bob

yea billy bob is a big cardinals fan, i just watched mine you should really watch it as soon as you can its a great piece of film

by truemun12 on Dec 25, 2006 9:41 PM EST up reply actions

Just found out on Amazon: 1987 World Series

Despite my belief that the 1968 Series would be released this March, right now it appears that the 1987 World Series (all 7 games) will be released on March 27, 2007.

Just a heads up. I'm all for as many Cards games that I can get on DVD, but it'd be nice to start seeing more that they actually win in!

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 25, 2006 10:00 PM EST reply actions

big unit

looks like more than just the diamondbacks are in the running for randy johnson: mlbtraderumors is reporting the angels, dodgers, and padres all in the running for a trade with the yankees.

now im never for signing a 43 year old has been, but he is definitely discussion worthy--perhaps that offseason surgery could have helped bring him back to his old dominate form (or at least close to it)

by MarcGldstn on Dec 26, 2006 8:36 AM EST reply actions