lowe country

by lboros on Nov 7, 2006 9:17 AM EST in St. Louis Cardinals News

espn's jerry crasnick, having talked to half a dozen gms and scouts, says suppan is drawing slightly more interest than weaver, with marquis a distant third. no surprise there. crasnick likens weaver's position to that of derek lowe, who came up big in october 2004 after a lackluster regular season and cashed in to the tune of 4 years / $36m. but the comparison only goes so far; here, side by side, are the pitchers' 3-year records heading into free-agency:

weaver		lowe
13-13, 4.01		21-8, 2.58
14-12, 4.22		17-7, 4.47
8-14, 5.76		14-12, 5.24

lowe ranked 2d in mlb in victories over that 3-year period and 11th in winning percentage; his worst won-lost record was equal to weaver's best. lowe ranked 45th in era during that span (4.07), which isn't very good; weaver is even worse, placing 62d (4.57) in the corresponding 3-year run. put another way, lowe's era placed in the top half among mlb pitchers; weaver's, the bottom fourth.

he's in good company: 10 pitchers from the (roughly) bottom 1/4 in era between 2004-06 are free agents. the others are mulder, marquis, ted lilly, vicente padilla, miguel batista, gil meche, mark redman, ramon ortiz, and jason johnson. a number of other pitchers in this free-agent class have eras that are just as bad, but they haven't thrown enough innings to make the list (i used 450 innings, or 150 per season, as a cutoff).

in a group like this, it's no wonder guys like weaver and suppan stand out. all the same, i have a difficult time believing weaver's going to get better offers this off-season than he got last off-season. crasnick (presumably paraphrasing one of his sources) suggests that weaver might be well served "to sign a one-year deal with St. Louis, continue to build confidence under Duncan, then go back on the market with something more impressive on his r?sum?." it probably won't break that way, but perhaps weaver would agree to a 2-yr deal with an option for a third. . . . .

but the cardinals might be better served to look at a cheaper alternative like miguel batista. the more i look at this guy, the more i am reminded of jeff suppan right before he joined the cardinals. batista embodies "league average" --- check out his last 6 era+ figures at his baseball-reference page. now compare his career record to that of suppan through 2003:

	w-l	era	whip	k/9	k/bb
suppan	62-75	4.90	1.42	5.0	1.7
batista	68-79	4.46	1.46	5.7	1.5

it may be that i'm underestimating the market for this player; he made $4.7m in each of the last two seasons. but he's done nothing to distinguish himself, and in a market full of bigger names and hotter commodities he might just fall through the cracks. if that happens, and his price hovers in the $4m-$5m range, he'd be a valuable buy --- a durable, reliable 180-inning parcel. such an acquisition might also give the cardinals leave to risk overspending a bit on their other rotation slot, throw $30m or so at one of the more seductive second-tier picks (meche, padilla, randy wolf) in the field. i'm only now getting familiar with that group; prob'y take a closer look at those guys on thursday.

Update [2006-11-7 14:10:50 by lboros]: here is the last of the SB Nation awards --- nl mvp. pujols won it rather handily. he appears likely to take home the real-life hardware, too. god only knows how 4 voters left carlos beltran off the ballot entirely; i had him 2d. final vote:

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Comments

I agree

On Monday when you put Batista on the Roster Matrix, I started to really think about him. He is a pitcher who pitches around the strike zone and induces groundouts. And he has had years of really good stuff. Maybe Duncan would be a perfect fit for him.

by JBagKY on Nov 7, 2006 9:20 AM EST reply actions

Off-season News

Hey guys,

For those of you not living in the St. Louis area, one of the local TV stations had a couple of small blurbs in their sports section in regard to the Cardinals that I thought I'd share.

Jim Edmonds' agent (they mentioned his name) was quoted as saying that the Cardinals and Edmonds were making progress on an extension, and that it was looking like a good chance of them coming to an agreement before Saturday.
Chris Carpenter is starting to say the "I'd like to retire a Cardinal" comments, and they had a video showing as much.

Not that either of those are a given, just thought I'd pass it along.

by Robb on Nov 7, 2006 9:47 AM EST reply actions

I love Carpenter...

I hope they lock him up this offseason instead of waiting til the end of his option year.

Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Nov 7, 2006 9:56 AM EST up reply actions

BOOYAH on both of those

n/t

by sdrone on Nov 7, 2006 10:03 AM EST up reply actions

as Michael Bluth says...

"you gotta lock that down."

by hjkinboston on Nov 7, 2006 10:45 AM EST up reply actions

Carpenter's pitches aren't a trick

they're an illuuuuusion.

by effin fisk on Nov 7, 2006 11:53 AM EST up reply actions

a trick is what a whore does for money

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Nov 7, 2006 12:02 PM EST up reply actions

If the Cards ever traded Carp

they would have made a huge tiny mistake.

by bostoncardsfan on Nov 7, 2006 12:31 PM EST up reply actions

Carpenter

It's not an issue of trade - it's the fact that he's only locked up for 2007, plus an option for 2008.

It's time to lock him up!

by Robb on Nov 7, 2006 12:54 PM EST up reply actions

aaaaaand

the AD jokes stop abruptly.

(Walks off sulking to the sad Charlie Brown Christmas music...)

by effin fisk on Nov 7, 2006 2:21 PM EST up reply actions

i'm not done yet

I'm a failure. I can't even fake the death of a stripper

by Fitz on Nov 7, 2006 2:29 PM EST up reply actions

me neither

if i wanted something your thumb touched i'd eat the inside of your ear!

(okay, not sure how that's relevant, maybe addressed to kenny rogers?)

by hjkinboston on Nov 7, 2006 3:43 PM EST up reply actions

Thanks for the news!

I hope they both are true

by cmat on Nov 7, 2006 11:00 AM EST up reply actions

Jock's M.O.

i don't expect a Carp extension this year, for a few reasons.

it goes against Jock's M.O. he tends to only want to give long-term to guys when he has to, and he tends to be fairly risk-averse. Carp has an injury-history, and Jock gets another free look at him in '07, and has the option year of '08 to fall back on. i don't think he'll go for anything before then, unless Carp's agent proposes a deal for less than market value that Jock can't pass up.
there are WAY bigger priorities that need to work themselves out before Jock knows what he can give Carp. if the Cards somehow land a front-line starter for the next 4-5 years, then Jock will have a better idea what his payroll flexibility will be with Carp. if he ends up signing a couple of mid-priced/cheap guys, then he'll know he can give more to Carp.

by kindred on Nov 7, 2006 5:26 PM EST up reply actions

Next year

I think you're right about Walt's approach in these situations. Let's see how things go in 2007 - if Walt likes what he sees, he can talk long-term deal as part of picking up the option for 2008 (roll the option $$$ into the long-term deal in a way that works for both Carp and the Cards). Kind of like the discussions they are probably having with Edmonds right now - with all the obvious differences in age of player, performance level, length of contract, etc.

I love hearing Carp talk about things like "playing Cardinal baseball" and "you never want to be either the highest paid guy or overpaid for what you do." I read into that a desire on his part to stay in St. Louis for a long time.

by wildman on Nov 7, 2006 5:33 PM EST up reply actions

Thanks, Robb

We out-of-towners are appreciative.

Interesting stuff, as always, Larry.

by DCGreg on Nov 7, 2006 9:50 AM EST reply actions

Batista is a good target..

I do believe that Soup is going to be overvalued, though I would like us to make a solid play for him. The same for Weaver, though he may be more reasonable (except for his agent). With a limited number of quality #1 and #2 starters on the market, it is unreasonable to overpay and end up with an Izzy contract problem staring us in the face. Hopefully Jock can sort the wheat from the chaff, and fill the holes. Batista does look like a suitable Soup-style replacement.

go crazy folks..........

by wwbd on Nov 7, 2006 9:54 AM EST reply actions

Batista Fight w/ Cardinals

I also support bring on Batista for cheap.

However, lets not forget this guy almost killed Tino Martinez by throwing a ball at his head from 10 feet away when Tino charged the mound a few years back. Not that it matters about Tino, but Tony LaRussa doesnt like it when guys thrown at someones head from 60 feet, let alone 10 feet. LaRussa might keep this guy off his team.

2006 Cardinals- An underdog story

by Born in 82 on Nov 7, 2006 9:56 AM EST reply actions

OTOH maybe a little aggression is good?

n/t

by sdrone on Nov 7, 2006 10:03 AM EST up reply actions

Batista

I'd say 75% of Cardinal fans would have thrown at Tino if given a chance, too.

by Robb on Nov 7, 2006 10:11 AM EST up reply actions

Now that's a winter warm up booth

we all can get behind

by Valatan on Nov 7, 2006 10:15 AM EST up reply actions

Yeah and he wouldn't even need to charge the mound

He called fate's bluff on a cool New York night, October 19th, 2006.

by Number47 on Nov 7, 2006 10:28 AM EST up reply actions

Fighting attitude

That kind of "spirit" didn't stop the Cardinals from acquiring Gary Bennett, who had a run-in with Pujols a few years back. I don't know where Tony draws the line, but he likes feisty competitors.

by wildman on Nov 7, 2006 11:32 AM EST up reply actions

Bingo...

n/t

by cardsrul on Nov 7, 2006 11:35 AM EST up reply actions

or Tavarez

Didn't Tavarez throw at someone before he came over?

by roebirds on Nov 7, 2006 3:09 PM EST up reply actions

Yeah

Mike Matheny

by viva el rojo pajaro 42 on Nov 7, 2006 5:41 PM EST up reply actions

Batista and Meche....

would be my ideal pitcher signings this offseason, as well as retaining Weaver and possibly Mulder. Then having an opening day starting 5 of:
Carpenter
Reyes
Weaver
Meche
Batista

then if Mulder gets healthy and shows he has his stuff again, we can either deal one of these guys or move the weakest link into the pen.

Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Nov 7, 2006 9:59 AM EST reply actions

I suspect Weaver's

situation may depend on who's calling the shots... Weaver or Boras. For competitive reasons, Weavs would be best served by returning to the Cardinals... Dunc helped him with his arm slot, regaining the movement Weavs had when he was a youngster with "upside."

More importantly, playing with the Cards seemed to change Weaver's whole attitude on the mound... When he got to The Lou, he looked (and pitched) like a dog who knew he was gonna get kicked... it was just a question of when! But by the post-season, Weaver was channelling his inner Orel Hershiser! Who knew "Spicoli" was such a competitor? I think being around guys like Carp, Soup, El Hombre, Rolen, Yadi, et. al helped Weaver develop mental toughness and battle through those inevitable times when things went wrong.

I'm sure the Cards won't offer Weaver the most money... but I'm convinced St. Louis is the best place for him to pitch and win!

I also think somebody's gonna offer Soup stoopid money for being a "big game" pitcher. Can't blame a guy for cashing in...

"A man should live forever, or die trying." -- Mike Callahan

by The Ol Goaler on Nov 7, 2006 10:00 AM EST reply actions

what is helping with weaver...

is that the yankees wont be getting involved. that should keep the bidding down somewhat. i think he will return to the cards if they offer him something in same ballpark as everyone else. weaver might allow them to get a little more creative with the contract (deferred money and that kind of stuff). i dont see him/boras taking a huge discount though.

i think soup will get an offer for around 4/36. after this offseason AJ Burnett at 5/55 will look like a bargain.

by dmb60614 on Nov 7, 2006 10:17 AM EST up reply actions

Or you can let someone else sign him,

release him by mid-season, and pick him up again off the scrap heap!

He called fate's bluff on a cool New York night, October 19th, 2006.

by Number47 on Nov 7, 2006 10:30 AM EST up reply actions

Difference between Suppan and Batista

One key difference is that Suppan is now just 31 years old while Batista is 35. This means that, when Suppan signed w/ the Cards, he was just 28 and presumably entering his prime. He's been better as a Card than he was before coming to StL. I've seen nothing to indicate that Batista might get better over the next couple of years.

He'd make a nice 5th starter if we save some money to use on Jason Schmidt. But I doubt that will be the case. If we sign him and Mulder and use him either as a starter or for insurance in case Mulder isn't healthy, that makes some sense also. But to me, going from Suppan to Batista is a downgrade that is justifiable only in a couple of circumstances.

by chuckb on Nov 7, 2006 10:12 AM EST reply actions

I meant to say

use Batista either as a reliever or as insurance for Mulder

by chuckb on Nov 7, 2006 10:13 AM EST up reply actions

Wasn't Woody Williams

about the same age when we got him?

He called fate's bluff on a cool New York night, October 19th, 2006.

by Number47 on Nov 7, 2006 11:46 AM EST up reply actions

Randy Wolfe

Can be nasty when he's on. I hope we give him a look.

by Toddius396 on Nov 7, 2006 12:05 PM EST reply actions

completely off subject..

Did anyone else see this picture and laugh as hard as I did?

by gdowdy3 on Nov 7, 2006 12:09 PM EST reply actions

Wow...

I'm at a loss.

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Nov 7, 2006 12:14 PM EST up reply actions

ya i posted a link to it

and so did Zubin or mcgee i believe...Brokeback Cards...where stoner and Cali guy become one

Kenny is a "dirt" bag?

by punchinjudy on Nov 7, 2006 12:35 PM EST up reply actions

Ya

I posted it. Laughed pretty good.

I can see J'Ed saying: Kiss me Jeff!

by Zubin on Nov 7, 2006 9:16 PM EST up reply actions

I'm torn on Batista

The club already has 2 long term costly contracts in Rolen and Pujols. Expect Carpenters to be long and expensive as well. I've seen it mentioned in other threads and sadly I'm starting to believe it as well that the cardinals just can't afford another premier free agent. That would essentially have 4 players costing close to 50 million dollars. Not sure that's possible for us.

Which means that player development is going to get more and more crucial. Batista makes a nice fit for the back of the rotation but I worry that we are going to sign 3 Batista's this offseason and wind up with another mediocre or bad starting rotation.

I'm really not enamored with any of the 2nd tier free agents outside of Weaver and even then it's questionable. Meche had a bit of a career year. Wolf is injured alot. Padilla is just short of Julian Tavarez style hothead. I guess he would be my first choice based on sheer stuff but I'm just not sure.

Acquire Jason Schmidt!

by azruavatar on Nov 7, 2006 12:23 PM EST reply actions

Padilla's spent most of his career

in pretty hitter-friendly parks. He probably also has the most potential for improvement, but I don't know a lot about Meche (and people seem high on his stuff).

by Valatan on Nov 7, 2006 12:42 PM EST up reply actions

That's a good point about Padilla

None of those three are good bets to get you 200 IP and Padilla has the best strikeout rate which is what I like about him. He could simply become the next Marquis who's too hard headed to learn from Duncan though.

It really is a thin crop of pitchers this year.

Acquire Jason Schmidt!

by azruavatar on Nov 7, 2006 1:02 PM EST up reply actions

Not Sold At All

I don't see Miguel Batista being worth $3,000,000 more than Jamey Wright. Do you: Batista vs. Wright? Like Batista, Wright can start or pitch out of the bullpen. Wright's better at inducing GB and the two have virtually identical peripherals except for HR/9, where Wright gave up a Ponson-esque 0.923 HR/9 against Batista's 0.785 rate.

Even so, that'd be an enormous improvement over Marquis' horror-show 1.621 HR/9 he put up in 2006.

by liam on Nov 7, 2006 1:51 PM EST up reply actions

i like wright too

as a cheap 5th-starter option. but his major drawback is that he hasn't thrown 180+ innings since 2001. batista has done it in 4 of the last 5 years ---- and the one time he failed to do it, he was being used as a closer rather than a starting pitcher.

above all else, this cardinal regime demands durability and reliability out of its starting pitchers. that's why i think batista could be useful signing --- not necessarily an important one, just a useful one.

by lboros on Nov 7, 2006 2:16 PM EST up reply actions

I still would like to see them lock down carp

This year. I think its the biggest move they could do...If he hits the market hes gone.

Kenny is a "dirt" bag?

by punchinjudy on Nov 7, 2006 12:36 PM EST reply actions

Lock him down

or trade him whiole he still has value.

He called fate's bluff on a cool New York night, October 19th, 2006.

by Number47 on Nov 7, 2006 3:34 PM EST up reply actions

Batista

Count me among those who see little value in the Suppan-Batista comparison. As already mentioned, Suppan's pre-cardinal numbers helped establish a baseline for the ability of a young pitcher. Batista will be 36 before next season! His control has consistently been an issue and his strike out rate has rarely been significant. Dunc would need to find the fountain of youth and teach this old dog not to fetch so much lumber. He looks like a significant risk to me given his age, poor stike out rate, and the fact he will still probably command around 5 million in salary.

All my friends became Cardinal fans and grew up happy and liberal. I became a Cub fan and grew up imbittered and conservative." -- George Will

by wannabeGedman on Nov 7, 2006 1:49 PM EST reply actions

i discount the age differential

while age matters a lot vis-vis hitter development, it's a lot murkier as a factor in predicting pitcher development.

through 2003, suppan had pitched 1391 innings. batista to date has pitched an almost identical number --- 1382. in my opinion, that number is more relevant than their respective ages.

by lboros on Nov 7, 2006 2:19 PM EST up reply actions

I don't think we should discount it entirely

and just because he's thrown fewer MLB innings doesn't mean he's thrown less innings on the life of his arm.

I'm less concerned about age here because Batista isn't someone who relies on throwing a 95 mph fastball. He's got slightly better stuff than Supp but is still largely a control pitcher.

Also of the 42 players that threw over 200 innings he had the 8th worst BABIP. For a groundball pitcher that surprises me...maybe AZ's defense was worse than I thought...

I'm coming around to this signing if it's a 2yr/6-8M kinda deal

Acquire Jason Schmidt!

by azruavatar on Nov 7, 2006 3:50 PM EST up reply actions

Age differential does matter...

in this example. Suppan got better as he hit his prime, which is not "murky." As opposed to Batista, who would need a Jamie Moyer miracle makeover. And we are talking about a rapidly declining (increasing?) hit ratio which usually foretells declining stuff.

All my friends became Cardinal fans and grew up happy and liberal. I became a Cub fan and grew up imbittered and conservative." -- George Will

by wannabeGedman on Nov 8, 2006 12:59 PM EST up reply actions

The San Jose A's?

Anyone read about this? Apparantly the A's may be moving south to Silicon Valley. The move makes sense in a lot of ways, but can anyone justify the long-term feasibility of a 36,000 seat stadium?

I know smaller stadiums induce higher prices for seats and increased season ticket sales, but I have to believe its not good for the long term popularity of the sport.

He called fate's bluff on a cool New York night, October 19th, 2006.

by Number47 on Nov 7, 2006 2:03 PM EST reply actions

Batista

At first blush, I liked the idea of Batista: innings eater, journeyman. The kind of guy who does well in the D. Duncan system. On further review, I don't like it. First age 36 (this would be a one year at most deal). Second, spending $5m or so on Batista as a 5th starter means we won't have the money to go after any of the higher level FA starters. I'd just as soon see us stick Thompson in the rotation at league minimum and use the savings to resign Mulder or Weaver. There are too many needs on the team to sign both Weaver/Mulder and Batista (or a similar mid-level journeyman). I think Brad Thompson stands an odds on chance of giving us the same production as a Batista at a fraction of the cost.

Rotation:
Carpenter
Reyes
Wainwright
Weaver / Mulder
Thompson
(#6 beginning the year in Memphis--Narveson)

Late inning Pen:
Looper
Tyler Johnson
Josh Kinney
** need another strikeout setup guy to replace Wainwright.

Productive setup guys are much cheaper and plentiful on the FA market (or obtain via trade) as opposed to starters. If the team could pull another Kiko Calero or Al Reyes out of thin air, that would be beautiful.

by jjray on Nov 7, 2006 2:35 PM EST reply actions

let's look at that again...

you've got a rotation of Carp, Reyes, Wainwright, Weaver/Mulder, and Thompson.

that leaves one established good pitcher with an injury history, three guys who are completely unproven (4 if you count your back-up guy), one guy who had a horrible season but a good postseason, and one guy who is coming off of shoulder surgery and won't even be ready before May.

Thompson was horrible in middle relief... why make him a starter?

i should hope the defending World Champs could muster something better than that.

by kindred on Nov 7, 2006 5:36 PM EST up reply actions

2007 rotation

Probably looks like that with one difference (agree with leaving Thompson off the list for sure):

Carp
Reyes
Wainright
Weaver
Mulder
Batista/Wright/etc.

We'll need at least 6 candidates if we're going to pursue Mulder and rely on Izzy to close (unless we're willing to consider Looper the backup for Izzy instead of Wainright).

by wildman on Nov 7, 2006 5:44 PM EST up reply actions

I mean Wainwright (sorry, Adam)

by wildman on Nov 7, 2006 5:45 PM EST up reply actions

Batista--Thompson

The point is that I'm against a Batista journeyman-type at $5-10 mill. Thompson had one bad month but was inserted back into the middle relief roll during post season (4 appearances in the post-season). He's got a career ML ERA of 2.82. Can he give us 12 wins with a 4.5 ERA? It's reasonable to hope for that IMHO. I don't want to see us wasting money on retreads in the 5th starter spot (ala Ponson) when we can get the same thing at the league minimum.

by jjray on Nov 7, 2006 7:24 PM EST up reply actions

Yeah I know what you mean

but I think Narveson would have a better chance at getting you a sub-5.00 era and 8-10 wins than Thompson. Brad has essentially one pitch: his slider. His fastball is average at best and he doesn't have a changeball or curve to speak of.

I think Narveson is worth a look in ST. I would like to see him duke it out for the 5th spot and then move down to Memphis as the backup. Batista for 4-5 million isn't going to kill this team. you have to think he can at least put up Marquis-esqe numbers.

Acquire Jason Schmidt!

by azruavatar on Nov 7, 2006 9:22 PM EST up reply actions

SB Nation MVP voting

Who's the idiot who voted for Soriano as the MVP? Meaningless homers and steals do not a MVP make.

by indakind on Nov 7, 2006 3:00 PM EST reply actions

cla meredith

5th place vote in the MVP and a 3rd place vote in the CY. if you cant display at least a modicum of sanity when voting you should lose your voting privileges or at least be prohibited from voting for people on your favorite team.

by dmb60614 on Nov 7, 2006 3:13 PM EST up reply actions

There goes the theorey that bloggers

have better judgement or are less biased than sportswritters.

He called fate's bluff on a cool New York night, October 19th, 2006.

by Number47 on Nov 7, 2006 3:36 PM EST up reply actions

I think maybe some of us expected

a little too much from the SB nation voting. We can't really judge all of SB based on the excellence of this blog. There weren't 30 Larry Borowskys casting votes... :-)

"IT WAS F**KING RAINING FROGS!!"

by iron duke75 on Nov 7, 2006 4:32 PM EST up reply actions

Voting

It surprises me that Carlos Delgado didn't get as much as a single 10th place vote.

by Silent George on Nov 8, 2006 8:44 AM EST up reply actions

don't understand lb's comment?

..."he appears likely to take home the real-life hardware, too."

not getting who the pronoun "he" is actually referring to. in context, it makes it seem like lb is stating that delgado is likely to win the mvp. surely, that's not the case.

or is "he" referring to pujo? i'm hoping that's the intent.

by busch league on Nov 7, 2006 3:04 PM EST reply actions

Beltran

is who he meant.

by ninerings on Nov 7, 2006 3:10 PM EST up reply actions

or maybe Pujols

but not Delgado

by ninerings on Nov 7, 2006 3:10 PM EST up reply actions

and while I'm posting

I might as well say that whoever has the man-crush on Cla Meredith should be removed from the voting.

by ninerings on Nov 7, 2006 3:12 PM EST up reply actions

yeah....beltran.

sorry...that's what i meant. where did that delgado crap in my head come from? who knows?

i was just curious to know whether lb was saying that beltran was the front-runner or pujols. seemed like he was saying beltran. i just happen to disagree.

by busch league on Nov 7, 2006 3:22 PM EST up reply actions

could be...

...that delgado is still in my head as a result of those 36 home runs he hit against us in the nlcs.

and yes, i exaggerate for effect. it's a problem. i'm seeing someone about it. but i don't want to talk about it.

by busch league on Nov 7, 2006 3:26 PM EST up reply actions

Beltran

It appears as though he means Carlos Beltran.

by roebirds on Nov 7, 2006 3:12 PM EST up reply actions

bad editing

it reads like i mean beltran, but i actually think pujols is the front-runner . . . . . . sloppy editing job on my part.

it's fixed now ----

by lboros on Nov 7, 2006 4:31 PM EST up reply actions

haha

had it figure out anyway:)

He called fate's bluff on a cool New York night, October 19th, 2006.

by Number47 on Nov 7, 2006 4:58 PM EST up reply actions

I think Tavarez

might have thrown at someone after he came over, too.

by Red in Chicago on Nov 7, 2006 3:21 PM EST reply actions

sb nation voting

is this the first year of sb nation voting?

if not, how has previous years sb nation voting "jived" with the actual winners? are they a good indication of how the actual voting will go? no relation whatsoever?

by busch league on Nov 7, 2006 3:24 PM EST reply actions

Well, probably not "real" relevance

since they are bloggers and don't have votes in the process.

by sdrone on Nov 7, 2006 3:36 PM EST up reply actions

The SB voting

sure doesn't seem like much of an improvement on the baseball writers...

SB should make their vote public so we can go make fun of whoever loves Cla(y) Meredith so much.

by guayzimi on Nov 7, 2006 3:35 PM EST reply actions

Its not. Its just like when the BBTF

decided to come up with their own hall of fame.

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/

Similar biases and misjudgements exist no matter who is voting.

He called fate's bluff on a cool New York night, October 19th, 2006.

by Number47 on Nov 7, 2006 3:38 PM EST up reply actions

Biggio and Huff inked to deal?

www.mlbtraderumors.com 4m for biggio? if thats tru thats a hey thanks we luv you retire here deal

Kenny is a "dirt" bag?

by punchinjudy on Nov 7, 2006 3:48 PM EST reply actions

I'm not into...

the bleep ESPN sentiments frequently thrown around here, but can't you just feel Verducci's teeth grind as he writes this piece on the Cards?

And why turn to JP Ricciardi as some kind of a sage? Could it be an Italian thing?

by guayzimi on Nov 7, 2006 4:14 PM EST reply actions

he threw in the

"got to give them credit" and then but... To me that article defines how special this team was..even though they try to make it look like a fluke..it owuld never work in the AL..who cares they beat an AL team...

Kenny is a "dirt" bag?

by punchinjudy on Nov 7, 2006 4:46 PM EST up reply actions

I think I've come full circle

A month ago, that stuff pissed me off to no end. Now, I just can't stop snickering, especially at some of the new ones that have been written since the Series ended. Some of these guys seem to have really taken it personally, and I can't understand why...

Speaking of snickering, I challenge anyone here to read this again without having a good laugh... :-D

"IT WAS F**KING RAINING FROGS!!"

by iron duke75 on Nov 7, 2006 4:54 PM EST up reply actions

Ricciardi

Is a GM who has a nearly impossible task ahead of him and they wanted to play off their fate against the hand presented to the Cards this past season.

What I don't get is the comparative lack of credit that the Cardinals have received for putting together a team in 2004 & 2005 that would have killed in the AL. Five solid-to-good starting pitchers instead of the usual frontend starters plus one or two sacrificial anodes. A deep & versatile bullpen. A starting lineup that struck fear into the opposition and would have been helped out even further by the DH to hide an injury-prone or defensively-deficient player.

Yes, they benefited from having a weak division and league this year. But given the pitiful competition they faced and the actual potential they possessed, they might have been able to win 95-100 games again this year, if most everything had fallen right again, as in '04 & '05. (Hmmm, 100+ wins in three straight seasons = Shut The [pick whatever word makes you happy] Up!) The press would be talking about the Cardinals as they did the Mets (i.e., the class of the league), except with the World Series win still in our trophy case.

Oh, the burden of stupid people.

by Solanus on Nov 7, 2006 5:10 PM EST up reply actions

hindsight

It now apparently passes for expert insight that you can't win the Series if you don't make the playoffs, and that (amazingly) winning some divisions may be easier than winning others. Thanks for the tip, Mr. Ricciardi.

However, it's silly to dismiss the Cardinals' approach as inadequate for the almighty AL.

The 2004-5-6 Cards have been a strong team over a three-year span, built on the MV3, Carp, Supp, and Izzy. This year Albert's oblique, JEd's concussion, Eck's concussion plus oblique, Izzy's hip, Mulder's whatever, and Marquis's disintegration took a huge chunk out of the season, but the weakness of the division gave them (barely) enough cushion. 2006 doesn't make the Cards unsound; it means that they caught a few bad breaks, and then a few good breaks for the championship they deserved.

by madridbend on Nov 8, 2006 1:07 AM EST up reply actions

Gah

Do you think George Mason would've got this much crap if they had won March Madness last year?

Acquire Barry Zito!

by aet15 on Nov 7, 2006 5:11 PM EST up reply actions

this may....

this may have been said already, but the simple thing i tell someone who bitches about the cards winning, and that they shouldnt have been there yada yada yada, all i say is well, all i know is this is the BEST 83 WIN TEAM i have ever seen, and they cant argue with that

by bigcardsfan5 on Nov 8, 2006 12:28 AM EST up reply actions

Lboros, will you be doing a Pujols MVP

comparision like you did earlier this year with Beltran, Berkman and Howard using the end of the year statistics?

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 7, 2006 5:08 PM EST reply actions

good suggestion

i will put that in the tickle file --- when the announcement's due i can re-run those ####s and see how it breaks down.

by lboros on Nov 7, 2006 5:32 PM EST up reply actions

The weak division

I don't know if anyone will like this argument, and I don't know what the numbers are outside the division...but here goes:

A team with a mediocre record that wins a division isn't necessarily a team from a weak division - you might argue that their division has some strength and beat up on each other because of parity. Maybe all the teams are really close to being as good as one another.

I think a telling stat would be how the teams fared in their games against teams outside the division.

by Toddius396 on Nov 7, 2006 5:29 PM EST reply actions

one might say that...

... but if they did, i'd have to question whether they watched any NL Central games this year.

and, without looking it up, i believe the NL Central got creamed by the other divisions, and i know they got creamed in interleague play.

by kindred on Nov 7, 2006 5:41 PM EST up reply actions

Its a good sign

that Pujols did so well in the SB Nation voting. Lets hope the good fortune applies to real MVP voting.

Lets go cards !

by Zaronker 593 on Nov 7, 2006 6:07 PM EST reply actions

batista

did you know the dude wrote a novel, and is working on a sequel? and he's big into poetry and philosophy. sup had his words of the day, a smart guy in his own right as well. here's maybe a bargain rotation that would be an upgrade, call me crazy... Carp $8 Meche $6 Batista $4.5 Wainwright 400k Reyes 400k that doesn't pop any eyes, but it doesn't seem half bad if things break right.

"Go Crazy, Folks! Go Crazy!"

by erik on Nov 7, 2006 6:13 PM EST reply actions

Banner Ads?

I'm starting to get banner ads at the top of the page when I load VEB now. That's never happened before...is it something new?

"IT WAS F**KING RAINING FROGS!!"

by iron duke75 on Nov 7, 2006 6:33 PM EST reply actions

yeah . . . .

there's an ad disclaimer post directly above this one

by lboros on Nov 8, 2006 12:56 AM EST up reply actions

Meche

living only 2 hrs from Seattle, the guy got alot of hype towards the end of the season..not sure why with an 11-8 record and an era of 4 plus, but know he did. he did surrender 24 long balls though he could replace marquis as the wiplash kid...However if memory serves me he did put up like a scoreless inning streak or something at the end of the season.

http://seattle.mariners.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_individual_stats_player.jsp?playerID=219194 &statType=2

Kenny is a "dirt" bag?

by punchinjudy on Nov 7, 2006 7:31 PM EST reply actions

One thing that raises concern

about Meche is the seriously high number of bb's.

1999    85.2    57    6.021126761
2000    85.2    40    4.225352113
2003    186.1    63    3.04674906
2004    127.2    47    3.325471698
2005    143.1    72    4.528301887
2006    186.2    84    4.060150376
__    __    ___    ____
career    813    363    4.018450185

JockLaDunc can't be too excited about these prospects.

by _pistol_ on Nov 7, 2006 11:15 PM EST up reply actions

here's what i meant to post

IP BB BB/9IP
1999    85.2    57    6.02
2000    85.2    40    4.23
2003    186.1    63    3.05
2004    127.2    47    3.33
2005    143.1    72    4.33
2006    186.2    84    4.06
___________
career    813    363    4.02

bangs stupid head on wall

by _pistol_ on Nov 7, 2006 11:18 PM EST up reply actions

ya i noticed the walks

and by stats alone I cant see why everyones so High on the guy, but like the prospect of him rather than batista..the age thing scares me..

Kenny is a "dirt" bag?

by punchinjudy on Nov 8, 2006 12:36 AM EST up reply actions

Arroyos hair

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/index.jsp check the scroll thing dude wair a hat

Kenny is a "dirt" bag?

by punchinjudy on Nov 7, 2006 7:33 PM EST reply actions

Beltran left off ballot by two cubs voters...

...'nough said.

by Ignatius J Reilly on Nov 8, 2006 1:02 AM EST reply actions

John Thomson as a FA starter?

He's been hurt the past couple of years, so his health would have to be fully vetted. His career numbers aren't too bad:

WHIP 1.32
K/9 5.69
BB/9 2.61
K/BB 2.18

He's 33, so age shouldn't be a huge deal. The injury thing could be too much though - the last thing we need is more uncertainty on the pitching staff, especially if we re-sign Mulder. The more I think about it, Thomson might be viewed as a Mulder alternative (taking a shot at a guy with historical talent recovering from injury).

by wildman on Nov 8, 2006 9:08 AM EST reply actions

honestly...

... after really looking it over, i don't enough of a difference between Batista, Meche, Padilla, Wright et al to really think that any will be significantly better than the others. i'd really put Weaver and Suppan in the same category. i say Jock gets whoever is the cheapest, and uses the extra money to upgrade a few bit parts: 2B, 4th OF, a #2 starter, whatever.

i'm also starting to like the Aurelia idea for 2B. the guy can play all over the infield, so he can spell Rolen and Pujols. or, when the inevitable Rolen injury happens, he can play 3B for a longer stretch and plug in Miles at 2B. i don't really know anything about his defense, and i know that he's been injured some in the past as well, but he's been on playoff teams before and seems to know how to behave himself. he would be a decent #2 hitter in front of Albert, or a #6 hitter behind JED (if we keep him). it could be a good fit.

finally: i hope that somewhere in a tropical region, Young Dunc is fielding 300 fly balls a day, and being served a steady diet of curveballs/sliders in BP.

by kindred on Nov 8, 2006 10:10 AM EST reply actions

I thought John Thomson

was Atlanta's closer. Not sure he's starter material.

No, I think what you're going to see is signing either Weaver or Soupcan as your No. 3 guy, with the two second-year bucks in the 4/5 slots.

If they can identify the right guy, they'll go after a burner for No. 2 and drop Mulder...

OR keep Mulder and drop Wainwright back to the pen.

Can't see two mid-career projects within the top of the rotation.

by Red in Chicago on Nov 8, 2006 12:47 PM EST reply actions

One or the other

I agree with you there. Thomson has been a starter his entire time in Atlanta. He's been hurt the last two years which kept his appearances and innings down. When he is healthy he is a solid #3/4 starter for sure. Just not sure when/if he might be healthy again.

by wildman on Nov 8, 2006 1:27 PM EST up reply actions