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the case for Ted Lilly

Seriously.  This is supposed to be a post about Ted Lilly, and I can't think of a single damn pun  or movie reference or song title or anything to go with his name.  I'm sure I'm missing something, but it just absolutely refuses to come to me this morning.  If anyone has a really smart title, or a really funny one, I would love the help.  Anyway...

[ed note: how about something boring like this . . . not clever, but at least people know what the post is about. good post, btw.]

Ted Lilly seems to be an awfully controversial name around these parts.  No middle ground.  I think that's really interesting, so Im going to throw my hat into the ring.  

I think Ted Lilly is an absolutely perfect fit.  He's lefthanded, I'm sure he has other qualities... I jest, of course, but I really do believe he could be an outstanding pickup by the Cards.  

Lilly's ERA last year was 4.10.  That's a pretty good number regardless, but if you look closer, that becomes even more impressive:

He pitched all of his home games in the Rogers Centre, which, I believe, was either the sixth or eighth biggest hitter's park in all of baseball.  (I looked up the exact numbers earlier, but I dont remember what I did with the paper where I wrote them down.)  If you look at his home/road splits, his Away ERA is 3.93.  So, away from the Rogers Centre, he was under 4.00, which makes him above average already.  

He pitches in the AL East.  There are really two sides to that, and both figure in a pitcher's favor.  First, we all know what kind of lineups you typically see in that division.  The Yankees, whether they can win a playoff series anymore or not, did their best to recreate Murderer's Row last year.  The Red Sox are only slightly less formidable.  Even the Orioles, a terrible team by most accounts,  do have guys named Mora and Tejada in their lineup.  Hell, even the D Rays can hit.  The East has the absolute best lineups that you're going to find.  The other half of the AL East is the ballparks.  All of the ballparks in that division are hitter's paradises.  (Actually, Im not sure about Tropicana Field.  I forgot to check on that one.)  Camden Yards stops just short of being a bandbox, Yankee Stadium has one of the shortest porches in the game in RF, and Fenway is, well, Fenway.  My point is that Lilly may pitch in the worst division in all of baseball for a pitcher.  The vast majority of his starts came in hitter's parks, against tremendously potent lineups.  Personally, I think that 3.93 road ERA is even more appealing.  

Lilly's BAA is extremely low.  He allowed only a .196 average against to left handed batters last year.  Righties didn't kill him, either, only hitting a .238 clip.  His K rate would immediately be the best on the team.  I know the Cardinals don't put a high priority on strikeouts, but I think the low K rate of their staff may be a chicken/egg issue, i.e. the strikeout rate may be low because of the team's philosohy, as opposed to the pitchers they go out and get.  Carpenter, for one, had a much higher K per 9 with Toronto.  The philosophy of the team dictates that he throw groundballs rather than try to strike out a ton of batters.  A pitcher who strikes out a lot of hitters is attractive because it indicates the overall quality of his stuff.  It is much easier to take a guy with more than enough stuff and teach him to be efficient than it is to try and coach a guy to pitch consistently above his talent level.  

So, what we have is a pitcher whose peripheral stats seem to suggest he should be a much better pitcher than he has been.  That is Dave Duncan's target demographic.  A pitcher like Todd Stottlemyre, who could strike out fifteen batters a game but who never got much over .500, is perfect for Dunc's approach.  I think Lilly really fits this mold.  

Now, it is true that Lilly is not a groundball pitcher.  That does argue against the Cards being really interested, but I dont think that should be as much of an issue in this stadium.  As we all saw, Busch 3 actually plays as a bit of a pitcher's park.

My last point I dont really have any stats to go to.  I actually watch quite a few Blue Jays games on the MLB extra innings package.  (DVR is perhaps the greatest invention in the history of mankind, btw.)  I became a little bit of a fan back in 1993 because I despised the Phillies.  Over the years I've continued to watch because they always seem to have at least one or two guys I really like.  So, this is based entirely on personal observation.  Lilly seems to be a mistake pitcher.  What I mean is, he is a pitcher who doesn't allow a lot of baserunners, he strikes out a ton of guys, and he can cruise through a lineup with the best of them.  There are two real things that get him: walks and home runs.  
There are times when he seems to lose his release a little bit, and there are times when he just seems to nibble.  Then, when he's walked a guy or two, he'll throw that one really bad pitch up in the zone that gets hit to kingdom come.  
I'm not sure, I'm no scout, but Lilly seems to recoil sometimes off his front foot when he lands, hitting stiff and keeping his weight back.  That seems to be when you see the gopher balls.  Incidentally, Justin Verlander had the exact same problem when he pitched in college for Old Dominion, and they managed to correct it when he turned pro.  
I dont know how correctable something like that is, but over the years we have seen that Dave Duncan's forte seems to be making small tweaks to pitchers.  A little bit of a mechanical thing, i.e. Jeff Weaver, a little bit of a mental thing, i.e. Todd Stottlemyre.  Sometimes it's one more pitch, as when they added the forkball to Dave Stewart's repertoire.  Dunc seems to be the best at taking a guy with good talent and making the one or two refinements to put that pitcher over the top.  I think Lilly fits that mold perfectly.  Duncan preaches throwing strikes, Lilly has a problem being tentative.  Duncan can spot a small mechanical flaw, Lilly has what appears to me, at least, an explainable reason for leaving the ball up.  

I think that Ted Lilly is exactly the kind of pitcher that could have great success here under Duncan's tutelage.  He's a pitcher whose peripheral stats are much better that his main stat line would indicate.  There's a lot of untapped potential there, waiting for the tweaks that would allow it to all come out.  Just the move in leagues and divisions alone would probably lower his ERA by one third to one half of a run.  Add on to that the effect that Duncan could possibly have, and I think you could have a pitcher with a higher possible upside than Zito, at a signifigantly lower cost.  

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whats in a name?
thanks, I suppose.  But I dont want to be informative.  I want everyone to think I'm much smarter than I actually am.  Oh well, we put our dreams away...

by the red baron on Nov 30, 2006 10:00 AM EST reply actions  

title
how about "is ted lilly of the field our pick?", as in, the field of FA pitchers and the movie "lillies of the field" that won Sidney Poitier an Oscar, the first ever for an African-American man?  Anyway, I am interested in us pursuing Lilly.  I am just afraid that we would overspend for Zito and Schmidt and/or give them, esp. Schmidt, too many years.  I would like to see
  1. Carpenter
  2. Lilly
  3. Reyes
  4. Wainwright
  5. Wells.
This is risky in that we would have two rookies in the rotation, plus Wells with his injury history.  But, we have Narveson as a 6th starter, and maybe Tankersley if we keep him as another option.  Of course, the best option might be to trade for a #3 or 4 and keep Wainwright in the pen, but I would like him in the rotation myself.
"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it." ~Rogers Hornsby

by spiderman15 on Nov 30, 2006 10:17 AM EST reply actions  

my thoughts...
First things first, I like your post and i apreciate the effort and the sound argument you have made, supporting your arguments with facts. I guess my biggest issues with Lilly are (in no particular order)... -(not to beat a dead horse)He's a flyball pitcher. I did a diary myself of Duncan's successful reclaimations, and being a groundball pitcher is almost always a prerequesite. -He's a strikeout pitcher. That's all well and good, but you have to pay for strikeouts and the Cardianls simply don't seem interested in paying for them. -While he seems to be a de facto good option for this year, he won't come cheap in terms of either an anual $ amount or in the amount of years that it will take to sign him. Ted Lilly could be a servicable option this year, but he also takes away a spot next yearwhen there are free agents like Jake Westbrook, Mark Buehrle, Jason Jennings and others could potentially be on the market. I don't know, I feel like I should be quiet as I've sounded off on Ted Lilly enough. I certainly agree that Ted Lilly has the tools to become/stay a good/great pitcherI'll just say this to summarize my point: Ted Lilly is a good pitcher, a valuable pitcher. Having said that, though I think the skill set that he brings to the table is more valuable to another team than it is to the Cardinals. That is to say, I think the Cardinals would be paying more for a player that doesn't suit them as well. It would also block a rotation spot for (in my opinion) better free agent options in the future. peace.
o8o88o888o

by ilillillli on Nov 30, 2006 10:30 AM EST reply actions  

flyball pitchers, strikeout pitchers
woody williams was/is a flyball pitcher. jeff weaver is neutral on gb/fb. andy benes was a strikeout/flyball guy. dustin hermanson was a flyball/strikeout guy when the cards acquired him. garrett stephenson, in whom the cards invested a lot of time/effort, was a flyball pitcher.

kile was a strikeout pitcher; ditto carpenter and andy benes.

the club has a decided preference for groundball pitchers, but there's no reason to exclude a guy just because he doesn't get grounders. the organization is adaptable.

by lboros on Nov 30, 2006 10:43 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm not exiling him...
but, like I said... I think that he has more value to other clubs than he does to the Cardinals. I brought up several other points in addition to the groundballing point, but I think its signifigant. Weaver was a desperate midseason sinking-ship acquisition, and so he is an exception to the rule, but in recent years the Cardinals seemed to have intesified their prefference for groundballers, even attempting to endoctrinate Adam Ottavino from this years draft, but not teaching Reyes the two-seamer until he made it to the show this year. It seems like the aproach has been stepped-up in recent years, after many of the players you mentioned. Also, I think its just as legitimate to question Lilly's fit with the Cardinals based primarilyon one stat (goundballs) as it is to endorce him base d primarily on another (K/9). Many other factors (BB/9, HR/9, durability, age, etc.) suggest that Lilly might not be worth the financial commitment it would take to sign him. I wouldn't be upset if Lilly got signed, and as I've said before he's a good pitcher, but I just don't see him as the best fit. I'd like to hear your opinions on my diary. I love this site and the opinions on it and am simply doing as well as I can to state my case and support it. I'd love to hear what you and others have to think. Thank You.
o8o88o888o

by ilillillli on Nov 30, 2006 11:03 AM EST up reply actions  

you state your case well
and your opinion is welcome. i just happen to disagree with your conclusions. the cardinals have, as you say, developed a preference for groundball pitchers --- that's indisputable. but it's also true that in just the last couple of years they went hard after pedro martinez, who is a strikeout/flyball guy; and dontrelle willis, who's also a strikeout/fly pitcher. last week, reportedly, they offered $24m to randy wolf, who is a flyball pitcher with a high k rate. they also were heavily interested in adam eaton, another flyball/strikeout pitcher.

if the cardinals were interested in those guys, there's no reason they would hold lilly's flyball/strikeout orientation against him. if he gets guys out, he is a fit for the organization.

the case for him is not that he has a high k/9, but rather that he has put up good era's in a hitter-friendly park. move him to pitcher-friendly busch III, let him pitch to lineups without a DH, and he might see his era drop into the 3.60 range.

by lboros on Nov 30, 2006 11:32 AM EST up reply actions  

thank you for indulging me
I guess its in recent years that I've intensified my study of the Cadinals.  The biggest names I've heard in recent years (the last two) have been AJ Burnett and Dontrelle Willis.  Those two pitchers would seem to satisfy both as they both have a robust K/9 statistic and induce a high percentage of groundballs (dontrelle, too).

I'm not sure how to feel about how earnest the efforts made to acquire eaton were, as far as I heard they just met with his agent.  Wolf's a surprise for me.  But the Kip Wells signing makes me think that its even less likely the Cardinals will persue Lilly, as induce grounders and preventing homeruns is really all he does remotely well.  It seems to me that mantra's stuck here for a while.

I agree with you on the park factor and the DH.  I'm not going to look it up again, but I posted something on Valatan's thread yesterday.  It's something to a 1.272 tune Park Factor favoring homeruns at Rogers Centre, versus something like .878 at Busch III.  There's no way to pretend that wouldn't help Lilly.  Signifigantly.  

Thanks for the response.  Peace.

o8o88o888o

by ilillillli on Nov 30, 2006 11:50 AM EST up reply actions  

good points.
Excellent post.  I actually read your diary before I posted this and a lot of the Lilly debate on there was part of my impetus.  

On the GB/FB front, until he came to St. Louis and changed his approach, Darryl Kile wasn't a groundball pitcher.  He was a high, four seam fastball/curveball type pitcher who struck out a bunch of batters.  The change, to being a more efficient pitcher who got outs whatever the easiest way was, was what ended up making him such a tremendous pitcher here.  Dave Stewart wasn't a GB guy, ditto Scott Sanderson, ditto Bob Welch.  Even Matt Morris wasn't a groundball pitcher until his velocity deserted him and he had to try and become one.  I'm not taking shots, I just think that the obvious talent a pitcher possesses should weigh more heavily than the particular type of outs he tends to get.  (Of course, I have the same beef w/the Cardinal staff, so you probably have something there.)  

I don't really like Jennings.  I'm not sure why, he just doesn't impress me.  I haven't seen a whole lot of him, though, so it could just be me.  Westbrook is interesting, but I see him getting traded this year to a team that needs starting help midway, and I think whoever trades for him will try to get an extension done.  At least, thats what I would try to do.  (Related note: I really thought the Indians were going to be a good team, but I've really sort of soured on them.  Not sure why.)  

As for Buehrle, I would love to see him in a Cardinal uniform.  Signing Lilly wouldn't preclude the Cards from making a run at him next year.  Contrary to what the Cardinals have been trying to make us believe, it is perfectly legal to have more than one left handed starter at one time.  As for there not being a spot, what about the spot that Wells will be (presumably) vacating?  Unless Hawksworth or somebody forces their way into the 2008 plans (which I would also love, btw), there will be plenty of rotation room.  

by the red baron on Nov 30, 2006 10:55 AM EST reply actions  

Very Good Posts
Those were some very good posts but I tend to lean towards signing him given we need a lefthanded starter Lilly is a proven lefthanded starter who I think could have a lot of success in St.Louis Narveson hasnt proven anything yet but he hasnt really had a chance I think sign him for 2-3 years and Wells will be a FA next year so use the open rotation spot to go after a jennings,Buehrle,Westbrook and isnt Bartolo a FA next year? I dont get why everyone wants Buehrle to come here he didnt have a very good year last year well i gotta go bye

by Calhoun on Nov 30, 2006 12:19 PM EST reply actions  

You've sold me!
Excellent post Red Baron! You've given much insight to a player that I knew little about.

I've read that he is seeking at least 4 yrs/$34 mil. That means he will probably get 4 yrs/$40 mil. I say, just do it.

"Don't fail to miss tomorrow's game!" - Dizzy Dean

by jdubya on Nov 30, 2006 12:25 PM EST reply actions  

I guess I'm coming around on the idea...
But I still don't see how he's anything that special. I don't agree with the idea of signing a lefthanded starter "just cuz" anymore than I agree with the idea of signing someon just because they're young (Meche, maybe).

I don't understand why people aren't lining up for Vicente Padilla... He seems like the best remaining option, IMO (including Schmidt and Zito)

K/9
Padilla: 6.27
Lilly: 7.68

BB/9
Padilla: 3.11
Lilly: 3.67

HR/9
Padilla: .94
Lilly: 1.38

GB/FB
Padilla: 1.45
Lilly: .82

Lilly holds an advantage in strikeouts, bu that's it. Padilla walks fewer, gives up far fewer homeruns, and produces a much higher groundball percentage. Also, He's a few months short of being 2 years younger than Lilly. In my mind he's the best fit for the Cardinals in this offseason, and yet I don't see anyone campaigning for him.

Is this an attitude/personality issue? Statistically he's put up better numbers than Lilly, IMO. Do we sign Lilly just for the sake of having a lefty? Padilla's the superior pitcher, IMO.

o8o88o888o

by ilillillli on Nov 30, 2006 1:43 PM EST reply actions  

Padilla likes to bean people
didn't he and Kennedy throw down in a game last year or am I misremembering.
Acquire Jason Schmidt!

by azruavatar on Nov 30, 2006 1:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess I didn't mean to say "nobody"
likes Padilla...

But I'm still curious as to why on the posted poll on the main page Padilla has fewer than 1/3 of the votes that Ted Lilly has for free agent acquisition. I'm just confused as to what makes Lilly that much more appealing of a choice.

Lilly stikesout more that Padilla, but also walks more, gives up more home runs, gets fewer groundballs, is nearly 2 years older, and is probably less durrable. Although Padilla has had a few injury-shortened seasons, he's crossed the 200 inning threshold 3 times in his career, including last year.

I'm not trying to insult Ted Lilly. Not at all. I've said it before and I'll say it again: he's a good pitcher. In my opinion, though, he is recieving considerably more attention than Padilla (citing the poll, etc.) but I don't really see why. Padilla, in my mind is the better fit for the team and I'd be far more comfortable offering him (if it comes down to this) 4 years/$40MM than the same dollar figure for Lilly.

I really don't mean to come off sounding so combative, but I just don't see the fascination with Ted Lilly. Kip Wells was my value pick, Vicente Padilla is my overall pick for this offseason (including zito and schmidt). For some reason I don't feel like the Cards (or many people here) are that interested, though.

Peace.

o8o88o888o

by ilillillli on Nov 30, 2006 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

attitude/personality
on the surface, i agree with you.  padilla seems like a pretty good fit.  there are several rumors and allegations casting him as a head strong malcontent who abuses alcohol.  i stress that they are allegations.  i have no idea if they are true.  larry bowa said padilla would at times remove himself from games.  he has a reputation for losing his cool on the mound and expressing his dissatisfaction by hitting batters.  at times he has refused to talk to reporters, his teammates and even coaches.

by dmb60614 on Nov 30, 2006 4:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I think hes a good fit
I think Lilly is a good fit dont get me wrong im not saying to pick him up just because hes a lefty i think hes a good pitcher who will fit well with our team im not convinced on Padilla i.ve never seen him pitch and i dont really know what hes like

by Calhoun on Nov 30, 2006 8:20 PM EST reply actions  

Unless it personality...
What does it take to be convinced of Padilla?

While Lilly leads Padilla in K/9, Padilla leads Lilly in wins, ERA, BB/9, HR/9, groundball percentage, and innings pitched in the last five years.  Unless its personality or left-handedness I don't see the argument for Lilly over Padilla, though I'd like to if anyone cares to make one.

Honestly, I'm not trying to be combative, I'm really just trying to understand this better myself.

Thank you.

o8o88o888o

by ilillillli on Nov 30, 2006 11:33 PM EST up reply actions  

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