pujols for mvp
Update [2006-11-20 15:14:15 by lboros]: ryan howard won. whatever. here are the voting results.[end update]
there's already a diary going about the soriano signing, but here's my 2 cents. first, it's the type of signing that might make sense for a team that's a player away --- that needs one more big bat to take a shot at a pennant or a world series. the cubs, 66-95 last year, are not that team. all they need is a full season from mark prior; if he can stay healthy they'll contend, and if he can't they won't. i don't think soriano is a difference-maker. so i don't think the signing does serious damage to the cardinals' 2007 hopes.
it might, however, significantly damage another hope: that pujols plays his entire career in cardinal red. he's signed through 2011, at which point he'll be 31 years old --- same age as soriano. if soriano is worth $17m a year at 31 based on one mvp-type season, then what can albert demand at the same age five years from now? he'll be hitting the market 11 years after a-rod signed his $25m-a-year megadeal; i can imagine him commanding upward of $30m a year. i think albert likes st louis (he's building a lavish home in the area), and the mid-market pace seems to suit him; most of the teams that could afford to pay $30m+ a year play in high-pressure big-city environments. remember albert's run-ins w/ the new york media during the nlcs? i can't picture him on the yankees. but if the yankees offer $30m a year, the cardinals will have to counter at $25m a year just to have a chance.
that looming payroll obligation will play an increasingly large role in future off-seasons; the cards, already loathe to take on any large multiyear contracts, may become even more cautious than usual as albert's walk year approaches.
he might win his 2d mvp award today; the race is pretty much down to him and ryan howard. i broke down the competition with a month to go in the season and promised to revisit the issue once the full-season data were in; here's the original post. i'll use much the same approach today, comparing the top candidates across a range of important stats. one modification: the tables that follow only list each player's rank on the nl leaderboard in each category. click the "Read More" button at the end of the post to see the same tables with all the actual figures (ie, the actual batting avgs, hr totals, etc etc) filled in. so here are the rankings in raw, unprocessed stat categories:
| pujols | beltran | howard | cabrera | berkman | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| HR | 2 | 6 | 1 | t21 | 3 |
| RBI | 2 | 7 | 1 | t9 | 3 |
| R | 5 | 2 | 14 | 11 | 21 |
| AVG | 3 | 48 | 8 | 2 | 7 |
| OBP | 2 | 14 | 5 | 3 | 6 |
| SLG | 1 | 4 | 2 | 6 | 3 |
| OPS | 1 | 5 | 2 | 4 | 3 |
and here's a second table with some of the more popular processed stats --- again, nl ranks only:
| pujols | beltran | howard | cabrera | berkman | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| VORP | 1 | 5 | 2 | 3 | 4 |
| WinSh | 1 | 2 | 6 | t3 | t3 |
| EqAv | 1 | 8 | 2 | 4 | 5 |
| RC/27 | 2 | 5 | 1 | 4 | 3 |
| WPA | 1 | 4 | 2 | 5 | 3 |
there's little disputing that these are the top 5 candidates. they rank 1 through 5 in the nl in four of the "unified-theory" sabermetric stats, ie OPS, VORP, RC/27, and WPA; in the fifth such stat, Win Shares, they hold the top 4 spots and the 6th. (the mets' david wright finished 5th in that category.)
pujols remains the front runner, in my estimation. he places first in 6 of the 12 categories under consideration, and either first or second in 10 of the 12; he alone rates among the top 5 in all 12 categories. having said that, howard has improved his case tremendously. as of late august he ranked only 17th in the league in on-base percentage, 7th in VORP, 18th in win shares; his teammate chase utley had better numbers in all those categories. howard's only claims on the trophy at that time were his gaudy hr/rbi totals. but after september 1 he put up a bonds-like .387 / .561 / .763 line and helped the phillies --- who'd dumped abreu and cory lidle at the trade line --- stay in playoff contention until the final weekend. he actually overtook pujols in one important rate-stat category, RC/27, and finished right behind him in most of the others --- VORP, equivalent average, OBP, slugging, OPS, and WPA. howard finished the season first in 3 of the 12 categories, and either first or second in 8 of the 12; that's a strong candidacy. if he wins, the injustice will not be extreme.
but pujols is still the more deserving player. let's just compare the top two contenders, side by side --- the better figure in each category is highlighted in red:
| avg | hr | rbi | runs | obp | slg | ops | vorp | win sh | eqa | rc/27 | wpa | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| pujols | .331 | 49 | 137 | 119 | .431 | .671 | 1.102 | 85.4 | 39 | .356 | 9.94 | 9.24 |
| howard | .313 | 58 | 149 | 104 | .425 | .659 | 1.084 | 81.5 | 31 | .346 | 10.19 | 8.20 |
pujols beat howard head-to-head in 9 of the 12 categories, and one of howard's 3 victories --- rbi --- is a hollow one: howard had far more rbi opportunities than pujols, and converted them far less efficiently. his batting avg with runners in scoring position was .256, which ranked 51st among the nl's 71 batting-title qualifiers. albert led the league in this category with a.397 average. howard batted with 509 men on base in 2006, which led the league. albert batted with 72 fewer men on base (427) than howard, but still drove in nearly as many guys --- only 12 fewer, in 16 fewer games.
howard's incredible september is compelling --- his team outplayed the cardinals by 6 games in september, and finished with 3 more wins than pujols' --- but albert was no slouch down the stretch; he went .368 / .464 / .679 after september 1 and hit the crucial home run on september 27 that ended the cards' final losing streak. factor in his gold-glove defense and his major-league-leading total in win-probability added, and i think you've got your answer: pujols is the mvp.
we'll know soon if the voters saw it the same way. if they did, pujols will become the first back-to-back mvp winner in franchise history, the 6th in nl history, and the 13th in major-league history.
fully elaborated data tables after the jump.
| pujols | beltran | howard | cabrera | berkman | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| HR | 49 (2) | 41 (6) | 58 (1) | 26 (t21) | 45 (3) |
| RBI | 137 (2) | 116 (7) | 149 (1) | 114 (t9) | 136 (3) |
| R | 119 (5) | 127 (2) | 104 (14) | 112 (11) | 95 (21) |
| AVG | .331 (3) | .275 (48) | .313 (8) | .339 (2) | .315 (7) |
| OBP | .431 (2) | .388 (14) | .425 (5) | .430 (3) | .420 (6) |
| SLG | .671 (1) | .594 (4) | .659 (2) | .568 (6) | .621 (3) |
| OPS | 1.102 (1) | 0.982 (5) | 1.084 (2) | 0.998 (4) | 1.041 (3) |
| pujols | beltran | howard | cabrera | berkman | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| VORP | 85.4 (1) | 68.5 (5) | 81.5 (2) | 78.7 (3) | 70.7 (4) |
| WinSh | 39 (1) | 38 (2) | 31 (6) | 34 (t3) | 34 (t4) |
| EqAv | .356 (1) | .328 (8) | .346 (2) | .342 (4) | .339 (5) |
| RC/27 | 9.94 (2) | 8.39 (5) | 10.19 (1) | 8.72 (4) | 9.34 (3) |
| WPA | 9.24 (1) | 4.93 (4) | 8.20 (2) | 4.30 (5) | 5.37 (3) |
0 recs |
130 comments
Comments
The Glove
by DimitroffVodka on Nov 20, 2006 9:32 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Let's not forget...
W/o AP the Cards are not in the Playoffs this year, but then, w/o Howard neither are the Phils (still).
by cardzfanbub on Nov 20, 2006 10:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
At voting time
by blove121 on Nov 20, 2006 12:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
by Just Rope Ball on Nov 20, 2006 12:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wrong
MVP is awarded by the Baseball Writers.
by OCCardsFan on Nov 20, 2006 1:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ahh, Sorry
by Just Rope Ball on Nov 20, 2006 5:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
As usual, great analysis, lboros...
by PujolsFor President on Nov 20, 2006 9:41 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I suggested this...
He could get some old-timer to be bench coach and focus on the in-game decisions. Alternatively, they could give him a minority stake in the team. Can that be done in baseball?
by guayzimi on Nov 20, 2006 9:42 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
very michael jordan-esk
by MarcGldstn on Nov 20, 2006 9:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
why would they want to?
by dmb60614 on Nov 20, 2006 10:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't the Bulls
by 26thMan on Nov 20, 2006 1:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He did deserve it, but
by sdrone on Nov 20, 2006 2:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the market
by dmb60614 on Nov 20, 2006 10:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thoughts
Stephen A. Smith (the basketball writer) made a case for Howard in Sunday's Philadelphia Inquirer. I doubt he looked at any stats other than home runs and RBI. How does one explain the disparity in their averages with runners in scoring position? How does one explain how Howard only had 12 more RBI in 16 more games and in 72 more chances? I don't know, but if Pujols doesn't get the MVP I'm going to rip off my shirt, turn green and smash something.
by I Bleed Cardinal Red on Nov 20, 2006 10:01 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
stephen a smith
"The result of the voting for the National League's most valuable player is expected tomorrow and, with apologies and respect to Albert Pujols, the vote shouldn't even be close. Of course, there are naysayers who'll spew otherwise, vociferously pointing out how the league's 2005 MVP still had 49 homers with a better batting average and slugging percentage than Howard - despite missing 15 games in June because of an injury.
They'll be the same people I accuse of not paying much attention last season.
You don't just look at the stat sheets or the box scores to measure the impact of Ryan Howard. You view the landscape of MLB then ask yourself, "Where did these fans come from?""
and then this gem,
"The same can be said of Pujols, who is as big-time as they come. The St. Louis Cardinals would not have sniffed the postseason without him, let alone captured a World Series championship. But the reality is the talent that is Pujols, while fairly unique, is a dime a dozen in the laundry list of Latin talent that has invaded baseball.
When you think of Pujols, you also think of Manny Ramirez and David "Big Papi" Ortiz or Alex Rodriguez. They play great baseball, but that's it.
In Howard's case, not only has he performed, he's single-handedly transformed the focus of a sport, forcing baseball - and possibly the rest of us - to take a closer look at potential African American prospects perhaps through something more than Reviving Baseball in the Inner City (RBI) programs."
I can't wait for the guys at FireJoeMorgan to get ahold of this one.
by plh903 on Nov 20, 2006 11:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Stephen A. Smith
by BleacherBum on Nov 20, 2006 11:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm still giggling about this...
by briangunn on Nov 20, 2006 3:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So basically he's saying that
Quite frankly, I don't think race should be an issue. But hey, that's just me...
by iron duke75 on Nov 20, 2006 5:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
With so many...
by cardzfanbub on Nov 20, 2006 10:02 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Doesn't it feel like that EVERY year?
by jimstllax on Nov 20, 2006 10:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
how good does...
by ilillillli on Nov 20, 2006 10:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
4 years and 52 million still doesn't sound good
by joker24 on Nov 20, 2006 6:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hope Pujols wins
and Soriano is being placed on notice.
by cardsfan84 on Nov 20, 2006 10:30 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
He's on the cubs
by birdland on Nov 20, 2006 11:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
MVP
As for Pujols career with St Louis. When he first came up I thought two things about the guy. So far only one has come to pass.
- He is destined to play 1st base.
- Someday he'll be a Yankee.
by Number47 on Nov 20, 2006 10:38 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
the cardinals should "post" him
by ilillillli on Nov 20, 2006 10:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If you could...
$75 - $100 mil?
by cardzfanbub on Nov 20, 2006 10:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Long term deals
by carys on Nov 20, 2006 11:08 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Agreed on Carp...
by cardsrul on Nov 20, 2006 11:28 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
his kids
it might not be enough to keep him, but it is one more thing adding to the list of "the little things."
by gthedamned on Nov 20, 2006 12:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The STL
MVP=PUJOLS
by redbirdfan on Nov 20, 2006 12:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not enough to keep him
by effin fisk on Nov 20, 2006 12:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Albert
by wrv18 on Nov 20, 2006 12:20 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Dime a dozen?
Some piker named Joe Dimaggio is No. 1. Another goon named Jimmie Fox is listed. And then there's this clown Frank Robinson...
I see the point, it's whether attendance is up in Philadelphia that counts.
by Red in Chicago on Nov 20, 2006 12:21 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
He's worth the money
In short, the Cards need to sign him. To me, it's not about being competitive in your negotiations. It's making sure that if someone pays more for him than you do, they pay RIDICIOUSLY more. You don't lose those negotiation battles over small stuff. So yah - start thinking now about keeping him on the roster long term again.
Good post by the way..
by HugeCardsFan on Nov 20, 2006 1:45 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Albert's deferred money
by busch bird on Nov 20, 2006 1:57 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Pujols
I can tell you right now that if my current employer asked me to take a pay cut that they would pay me back 15 years in the future - without interest - I wouldn't feel one bit bad about cashing those checks, no matter who I would be working for later.
by Robb on Nov 20, 2006 2:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What a joke.
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 20, 2006 2:07 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I disagree with this
- Howard doesn't swing for the fences every time up -- he walked 108 times and had nearly as many non-HR hits as Pujols.
- The argument about not getting his team into the playoffs is weak, I think. Howard did A TON to give his team a shot at the playoffs -- why should he be penalized for an individual honor b/c the Phillies don't have a 5th starter?
- Howard's selection is not a joke. He was the second best player in baseball this year, which actually makes him a perfectly legit winner. Mind you, he's not the best pick -- Pujols is -- but let's try to be a little more gracious. Howard is a St. Louis kid, after all.
by briangunn on Nov 20, 2006 4:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with almost everything you say
Your second point bothers me though. I agree that not making the playoffs shouldn't preclude a player from winning the MVP just because other players on the team underperformed or simply weren't good. But there's something about Howard's saying that Howard did A TON to get his team to the playoff that bothers me in comparison to Pujols.
The Phillies had thes VORPs for their top 5 position players:
Ryan Howard 81.5
Chase Utley 65.2
Jimmy Rollins 45.2
Pat Burrell 27.5
Bobby Abreu 25.5
Total = 246.9
Howard's Contribution = 33%
The Cardinals posted these numbers
Albert Pujols 85.4
Scott Rolen 36.6
Chris Duncan 24.8
Jim Edmonds 20.0
Scott Spiezio 16.3
Total = 183.1
Pujol's Contribution = 46.6%
That's a pretty ridiculous difference in who is carrying the offense for each of their respective teams. I'm leaving pitching out of the equation (which Carpenter obviously posted a ridiculous VORP as well - 67.8) but I think the point still stands. Arguments that Howard carried his team offensively are overstated in comparison to Pujols. It's not so much that Howard didn't contribute rather that it's misleading to argue offensive prowess relative to team in Howard's favor. He had a lot of help in terms of production and protection that Pujols wasn't getting from his teammates.
by azruavatar on Nov 20, 2006 4:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ryan Howard struck out
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 20, 2006 5:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Etc.
As for azruavator's statement that "it's misleading to argue offensive prowess relative to team in Howard's favor" -- agreed, but I should also point out that I did no such thing. I think Pujols helped his team more than Howard did, and implied as much in my post when I said he was my pick for MVP.
I simply argued that Howad did a ton to push his team toward the playoffs, which is demonstrably true. As for which player had the highest percentage of the top 5 VORPs on his team -- that's a shell game that makes little sense to me. By that logic Lance Berkman was almost precisely as valuable as Pujols (46.4% vs. 46.6% of top 5 VORP), but that's not an argument I'd be prepared to make.
by briangunn on Nov 20, 2006 9:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
41% of Ryan Howard's at-bats were either a
For Pujols, 18% of at-bats were HR or SO, 16% of PA were HR or SO.
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 20, 2006 10:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think we're talking past each other
What I am arguing against is the point you made in your original post, that all those strikeouts are a good argument against Howard for MVP. They're not. When a guy can temper his free swinging enough to draw a walk (Howard finished 4th in the league) then what's the big deal about the free swinging? It's not like those 181 strikeouts are very different from other kinds of outs (study after study has shown that the difference between a whiff and an out on a ball in play is miniscule). So yes, Howard takes big swings -- but if those big swings do him FAR more good than bad, then how is it a criticism of his MVP selection?
I mean, look, I think Pujols was obviously better than Howard this year, particularly when you look at the difference in defense (but with the bat and on the basepaths as well). But Howard isn't a bad pick at all.
by briangunn on Nov 20, 2006 10:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I do so love shell games
by azruavatar on Nov 20, 2006 11:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Eh, whatever
by Alxfritz on Nov 20, 2006 2:10 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
There it is.
I forget who said it, but the voters love a story. Ho-hum naming the world champ the MVP is too boring.
We got what counts.
by jroman on Nov 20, 2006 2:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Happy for Howard....
by Timbo02 on Nov 20, 2006 2:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
This is an injustice
by Big Mike on Nov 20, 2006 2:16 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
We are Cardinals fans!
Sorry. That's probably a bit much, but honestly people... The voters don't usually break down the stats like we do here. What did you expect?
by effin fisk on Nov 20, 2006 2:27 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Good News
The MVP voting didn't turn out how it should have, but this is nothing but good news towards our real goal of winning. Pujols will be more determined next year, and marginally cheaper when we extend him down the road. I think an ego check for anyone as good as he is doesn't hurt either.
He's still going in the HOF either way.
by Jonathan23 on Nov 20, 2006 2:32 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Eh
Pujols lost it a couple of times when he deserved it, but he won it in '05 even though Derek Lee had a better season. Such is life. That's just the way it is sometimes.
He may not have won the MVP, but there's little argument nationwide about who the best player in baseball is: Albert Pujols.
by Bivouac77 on Nov 20, 2006 2:34 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
frank catt
by punchinjudy on Nov 20, 2006 2:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
bronson arroyo?
by gthedamned on Nov 20, 2006 3:32 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
1Cy + 1MVP = Zero 05 WS
We'll take it!
by Big Rev on Nov 20, 2006 3:33 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Here are the voting results,
by Number47 on Nov 20, 2006 3:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Howard vs. Pujols
by ArkansasTravs on Nov 20, 2006 10:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hank Aaron Award vs. MVP
Geez, the Hank Aaron award was created specifically for guys like Howard.
by Number47 on Nov 20, 2006 3:59 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
freaking ryan howard
It's just another confirmation that all of the things sportswriters claim to care about only matter when they can be used as part of a story.
by DanUpBaby on Nov 20, 2006 4:22 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I posted a diary about this:
It's an article by Rob Neyer ripping Stephen A. Smith and other people who supported Howard over Pujols.
by mtalken on Nov 20, 2006 4:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
pujols/howard
i think albert has some solace: he's tied with mantle for most 2nds, and last time i checked, howard was watching pujols win the series.
you think he'd trade his mvp for a ring?
by kurt on Nov 20, 2006 5:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
It's
If Steven A. Smith and the others had given their votes to Pujols instead of Howard, most people would be trumpeting their intellect and good sense. Yes Smith is an asshat, but he's an asshat who's entitled to his view, as are the other 18 voters who put Howard first on their ballot.
by cardsrul on Nov 20, 2006 5:16 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
what about the one
by chuckb on Nov 20, 2006 5:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That voter
- Howard
- Beltran
- Pujols
by liam on Nov 20, 2006 5:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Putting AP
by cardsrul on Nov 20, 2006 6:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
there's nothing wrong
by chuckb on Nov 20, 2006 6:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
writers aren't required to pass a test to vote
by effin fisk on Nov 20, 2006 6:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Last year,
As much as we might not like that, he's right.
by cardsrul on Nov 21, 2006 12:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I am not defending Stephen A. Smith at all
He's obviously trying to make his hometown player look better than he really is. We do the same thing all the time with Carpenter and Pujols. We can come up with a hundred arguments why Carp is better than Webb, Oswalt, or frickin' Hoffman, and only grudgingly point out his comparative faults. As for Pujols ... well, my hometown bias is superceded by the FACT that there are only a few advantages for Howard: HR, RBI, & AP already has an MVP. That's about it.
I'm sure that there are a few people in Philly annoyed with the glowing prose being written by StL sportswriters, confident that Ryan is actually the better player this year. Their biased opinion is no different than ours.
As for that A. Stephen Smith [sic] talking or not talking out of his dirt star, I'll leave that for you to decide. I'll just say that facts shouldn't get in the way of an impassioned idiot.
by Solanus on Nov 20, 2006 5:28 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Left Field
With regards to his defense (and what leads me to bring this up again), David Pinto released his PMR data for 2006 left fielders and Bonds faired pretty well. Concerns about his knee and bad defense may have been exaggerated...
http://www.baseballmusings.com/archives/cat_probabilistic_model_of_range.php
by azruavatar on Nov 20, 2006 5:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Boo! Hiss!
I'm going to be physically ill the day Bonds breaks Hammerin' Hank's record in any case. If he does it in a Cardinals uniform, I may defect. Maybe to the Brewers for a season.
-----
As for PRAR, I think it's above-average score for Bonds is not so much evidence that he was an above average left fielder but that there's a flaw in PRAR's methodology for rating outfielder performance—if I may be so bold. I'm convinced it's a sound method for infielders. I'm not sure what the problem for outfielders is after watching his video explaining the system, but my only guess is that it doesn't account for singles misplayed by OF's into XBH's, since the method only measures how many plays above expected are turned into outs. So according to PRAR, since this play was probably on average a difficult play to get to, Canseco is no worse a defender for turning it into a home run than Bonds would for getting nowhere near it—or Shawn Green would be for getting to it but turning it into a triple—or Juan Encarnacion would be for picking it up and holding the runner at 2nd. (Just watch the clip linked there, it's hilarious.)
Bonds may be slightly better at fielding the easy-to-moderate batted balls, but when he doesn't get to a ball, he really doesn't get to it—and that's not factored in. I don't get to see Bonds that much in the outfield, though, so I may be way off. I remember laughing at some of his plays in the outfield this summer is all.
That may not be right, though—the Giants didn't give up that many doubles compared to the rest of the league. They allowed a ton of triples, but they also play a bunch of games in AZ and CO.
by liam on Nov 20, 2006 6:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's a riot
by wildman on Nov 20, 2006 9:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh I don't know
by Red in Chicago on Nov 20, 2006 6:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Sarcasm detector broken
Illinois did go to the championship game two years ago, after all.
by liam on Nov 20, 2006 6:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Or a better example
by chuckb on Nov 20, 2006 10:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Strange Pujols MVP trivia...
Albert has now come in 2nd in MVP voting for the 3rd time - more than any other players in history except Stan Musial (4 times), Ted Williams (4 times) and Mickey Mantle (3 times).
by BTown Birds fan on Nov 20, 2006 6:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
there. is. NO. WAY
But I think Bonds is another matter. Wherever he signs, for the whole season he will be bigger than the team, bigger than the sport. And not in a good way. I don't buy that McGwire's HR chase was a distraction for the Cards. But that's because McGwire didn't have the steroid scandal hanging over him (we didn't find out about him until later). People have thrown needles at Bonds in the OF. Reporters will be all over him as he chases down Aaron. And God forbid George Mitchell actually finds anything or his jailbird medical staff decides it's better to talk and be free than be loyal in a cell. I recognize Bonds is still a .450+ OBP/.900 OPS guy, but it's not worth all of that to have him on the team.
by nycbirdo on Nov 20, 2006 6:34 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
interesting
by cjwest20 on Nov 20, 2006 6:42 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
seriously.......
and when's the last time neither the MVP nor the Cy Young of a league not make a playoffs appearance??
im almost offended...
by black3ram on Nov 20, 2006 7:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Astros
by Elvis on Nov 20, 2006 8:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you're right
the birds won it all
by black3ram on Nov 21, 2006 12:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you could also say the '04 birds...
by black3ram on Nov 21, 2006 12:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i should have phrased it better
by black3ram on Nov 21, 2006 12:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
did a little mvp research
well the simple answer is: not even close
pujols has finshed in order:4,2,2,3,1,2
the closest i found was the man who is also pujols' number one comparable: joe dimaggio
dimaggio finished 8,2,6,1,3,1
while doing the research, i did find two guys who had a better 6 year run than pujols
ted williams with 2 1st, 3 2nd, and 1 3rd
yogi berra with 3 1st, 2 2nd, and 1 4th
also while doing the research, i noticed how many times guys had been involved in the voting during their career
the following are the top ten:
- Aaron-19
- Williams-18
- Musial-18
- Bonds-15
- Berra-15
- Mays-15
- F. Robinson-15
- Rose-15
- Mantle-15
- Yaz-15
by bigcardsfan5 on Nov 20, 2006 7:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Interesting
What do you mean by "involved in the voting"? Receiving a vote? Finishing in the top 10?
by Youneverknow on Nov 20, 2006 9:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
by bigcardsfan5 on Nov 20, 2006 10:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
okay
last year andruw jones had 8 more homeruns than pujols.. but his team did make the playoffs.. mainly because of him...
yet pujols won it over jones..
how does one formula work in one year and not the next???
and someone voted pujols 3rd???????
by black3ram on Nov 20, 2006 7:12 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
apparently
i think the mvp committee puts far too much emphasis on hr's and not enough on the rest of play...i mean howard had a great year and i guess im not that surprised by his selection but still, rather annoying...
by MarcGldstn on Nov 20, 2006 7:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I guess they left off the
by punchinjudy on Nov 20, 2006 7:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Two things that cost Albert the MVP..
1. The Cards horrible last couple of weeks of the regular season. Remember.. when the writers voted for MVP this was really fresh in their minds. These were the same writers that predicted the Cards to lose to the Padres in 4 games. In my opinion this was the MAJOR reason many decided to vote for Howard.
If the Cards would have finished the season a lot better and won the division a week before the playoffs I think Pujols would be MVP right now.
2. He was on the DL for a couple of weeks while Howard played the full season. If Albert didn't get hurt and played those other 10-15 games, I bet he would have been alot closer to Ryan in HR & RBI's.
by KYCards on Nov 20, 2006 8:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I partially agree
I wasn't only partially correct, but I alluded to this back in September. Anyway, I think the team's near colapse at the end the season and Smoltz being the only guy to stop it, really hurt.
- It's why nobody voted for TLR for manager of the year
- It's why Carp lost the Cy
- It's why A'Pu lost the MVP
by Zubin on Nov 20, 2006 8:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
imagine if the braves really did lose that game
carp gets a W and pujols a 3-run walk off bomb....
we have our cy young and mvp..
by black3ram on Nov 21, 2006 12:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ryan Howard, with the season on the line,
Pujols, from the start of the losing streak went 18 for 51 with 13 RBIs, 7 strikeouts and 3 HRs in the final 13 games.
I'm not sure what more Albert could have done during the losing streak to help the club. It's not his fault that Braden Looper sucks. :D
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 21, 2006 1:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree with the analysis
Comming to think of it MVP should have gone:
- Pujols
- Smoltz
- Beltran
- Berkmann
- Howard
by Zubin on Nov 21, 2006 3:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Alyson Footer agrees
Answering the question, "What's Oswalt got to do to win the Cy?"
I don't necessarily have a problem with Brandon Webb winning it, because he, too, had a phenomenal year. What I do have a problem with is Trevor Hoffman and Chris Carpenter finishing ahead of Roy.
>snip<
Carpenter allowed six runs in each of his last two starts and contributed to what was almost the biggest end-of-season collapse in baseball history.
I know Leach is a Red Sox fan, but I can't imagine him dogging Oswalt like that on the official site.
by liam on Nov 21, 2006 3:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Getting old fast...
That is the problem with too many sportswriters today. They are too hung up on what might have been, rather than focusing on what is.
Hey Alyson, memo to you and your friends: "almost collapsed" doesn't count...
by iron duke75 on Nov 21, 2006 8:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
by Zubin on Nov 21, 2006 10:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well then, be sure to let me know
;-)
by iron duke75 on Nov 21, 2006 12:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No it doesn't
by chuckb on Nov 21, 2006 6:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If you look at the awards voting,
by Zubin on Nov 24, 2006 2:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and due to the recent world series
by MarcGldstn on Nov 20, 2006 9:07 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
the soriano deal
when chet Stedman(Busey)asked by reporters about making the series he said "hey anything can happen we're the cubs" i laughed thought it was a great cheap shot at the "loveable losers"
Oh and Mr Wood...pitchers got a big butt...
i just had too..unless they lock down a few arms..im not too worried about them..
by punchinjudy on Nov 20, 2006 10:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Mets sign Alou, decline Glavine option and
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-mets-alou&prov=ap&type=lgns
by sdrone on Nov 20, 2006 10:21 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Whew
by orlando card on Nov 20, 2006 10:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
hey
that makes me like the edmonds deal more
by bigcardsfan5 on Nov 20, 2006 10:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
i just saw it...
by ilillillli on Nov 20, 2006 10:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yuck
by chuckb on Nov 20, 2006 11:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
bless you juan encarnacion.
by ilillillli on Nov 20, 2006 11:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dave Roberts
Juan Pierre won't turn 30 'til next summer, and he's very good at catching fly balls. But that's it, man. He's barely average in SB % for his career, and he has been barely average OBP for the last two years. And he's got the worst CF arm in the majors! Is there that much more outfield real estate in Dodger Stadium than Wrigley for him to collect bloop hits?
5/45? That is insanity.
by meat on Nov 21, 2006 12:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm thinking wait it out is the way to go, right?
by ilillillli on Nov 21, 2006 12:30 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
its funny no one voted for brandon webb
but theres no webb.. not one person voted for the man. not even 10th. even bronson arroyo got a vote.. ha!
by black3ram on Nov 21, 2006 12:53 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
just think
just becuz sosa's team made the playoffs and the birds didnt...
mcgwire had 70 and sosa 66?
these votes.... they change from year to year..
based on NL, does this mean ortiz wins it for AL mvp over jeter?
jeter isnt even half deserving of the award as pujols.
by black3ram on Nov 21, 2006 12:58 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
rumor has it the cubs are still pursuing Lugo
And why aren't they using some $$$ to stabalize their flippin rotation???
by azruavatar on Nov 21, 2006 1:22 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Starting to wonder about that
by liam on Nov 21, 2006 2:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
they're like
by chuckb on Nov 21, 2006 6:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Minor Notes
Hawksworth, who missed most of the previous two seasons with shoulder troubles, bounced back with an 11-4 record and a 2.92 ERA between Single-A Palm Beach and Double-A Springfield last season. He remains one of the Caridnals' top prospects.
by El Hombre on Nov 21, 2006 1:50 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Good Stuff
Bigbie's been removed from the 40-man and released, as has Cali.
The changes, except for Cali and Bigbie's releases, are both reflected in the official 40-man roster page. Of note is that there's no mention of Ankiel, who I guess will be re-signed and run through the waiver gauntlet.
Of interest to me and anyone else scanning for Rul3 5 candidates, Astro's AAAA power/switch-hitting 2B Brooks Conrad was added to their 40-man. Good for him.
by liam on Nov 21, 2006 3:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Terry Evans Jr.
by liam on Nov 21, 2006 3:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
good for him
by chuckb on Nov 21, 2006 6:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
F**kide F**k F**k F**k
this is yet another case of blatant east coast bias on the writers part. and don't even get me started that this is a "old&tired" argument. it may be for some, but its completly revelant here. how else could they pick howard? his numbers do not support him winning. the only thing he did better than Albert was hit home runs and drive him more rbi's. if Albert played in that band box, with the kind of protection howard his this year, he too would have off the charts crazy home run and rbi totals. howard is black, so there is no raciest element here. as much as steven A smith would like to make one, there isnt. his argument is about as revelant as if richard justice would say that fat elvis should win the mvp because most baseball fans are fat white guys. so their mvp should look like them. something he would never do of course. but what steven did is just as bad. back to howard, his team didn't make the playoffs. isn't that the "tie breaker" in deciding who is mvp? sure was in 98. isn't it the same reason many pointed out why andrew jones didn't win last season? in fact the phillies fell off the table completly. so did howards play as many of you pointed out. Albert kept his great season going, all the while it was our pitching that let us down. Albert isn't bugs bunny. he can't play the field and pitch at the same time. it can't be steroids. but then if it was, why has Barry Bonds won 7 mvp's if the suspicion of using steroids keeps you from winning any kind of awards? nope. no double standard there.
so why did howard win? what I have to tell myself so that I can finally get some sleep tonight is that its all ESPN fault. they played howard up all the way till the end of the season. even when his numbers were not even close in some aspects to Alberts. if it does not happen on the east coast, chicago, houston, or LA, ESPN ignores it. always has. and always will. and the BWWAA are full of lazy morons who's revelancy will soon be no more if they keep following ESPN lead.
if you can't tell. I am really pissed off. and I would like it if someone from the Cardinals would show some anger too. but, unlike me, they don't really care about personal year end awards. good thing too. awards like this are more for the fans and agents and selfish players that only want big money anyway. not guys like Albert, or any other Cardials player. and thats one of the things that makes them the best franchise in baseball. all they care about is winning rings. and guess what? we got one this year. so no, Albert won't say he is mad that once again he got over looked for a much deserved award. if he is even asked about it, he will be very gracious and say howard was the best this past season, and he deserved. he and the rest of the Cardinals are far more gracious that I will ever be in this respect.
besides, when it's all said and done. when Albert is giving his speach at his hall of fame induction,going in as the greatest player to ever walk onto a diamond. no one will even remember who ryan howard was.
by gdm426 on Nov 21, 2006 4:27 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Can I get an...
Did anyone here that little weasel, Carl Ravijk (Sp) on ESPN last night talk about how sure, Morneau's numbers were better than Jeters', but Jeter was far more deserving because he played on the team with the best record in the AL and won a gold glove. Jeter wouldn't even have made the top 10, nor won that gold glove had he played anywhere but NY and I hear those whining NY maggots complaining because a couple of writers put him 4th and 5th. And the Yanks, with their 250 million payroll won 1 more game than the Twinkies while playing in a weaker division. I'm sure the Twins record would have benefitted from playing the D-Rays a few few more times. Where was this weasel when Pujols was getting hosed.
by Elvis on Nov 22, 2006 10:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs





















