Mr. Walter (Call me Bocephus) Jocketty

by OKCardsfan on Nov 14, 2006 7:24 PM EST Comment 29 comments

Okay I'm playing Walter for a second so bear with me. This is going to sound hair-brained and as a matter of fact it is. But I hate waiting for trades and stuff so I try to come up with crazy things that might (or not) work. Feel free to criticize me!

SP's

Trade Duncan for Erving Santana of the Angels. (Dunc could play 1b or DH)
Trade Rick Ankiel (or some other schmo) and Juan Encarnacion for Jeff Francis of the Rockies.

So my rotation is
1.Carp
2.Wainers
3.Reyes
4.Francis
5.Santana
Yeah that's right ladies and gentlemen! A group of young kids led by their wise master CARP! BRILLIANT! Oh no some of you say! Balderdash screams others! Wainers needs to be in the pen! Well my pen is the best pen in the entire world!

Pen
You remember that guy that used to close for us? What was his name? Isri..Isring...? Oh yeah that guy! Isringhausen! Maybe he could be our closer! I mean hell we're paying him to do that. Take Wainers out, insert Narvie, close by committee until Izzy gets back! BRILLIANT!

Outfield
J-Rod or Schumacher or my mother
Edmonds
Luis Gonzales

Infield
Rolen
Eck
Soriano
Pujols
Molina

Bench
Triple A - Memphis

Now really was that so hard? I might have slipped that Soriano guy in there but with all the cash I just saved us, it's really not unrealistic. Remember before you hammer my rotation that my average age is 26 yrs old. That's the 90's braves right there folks. Except we have David "they call me the pitcher whisperer" Duncan.

Okay I ran out of steam there. Please plug any holes in my leaky boat. Or as my math teacher used to say. "Think outside the box."

(I just wanted this diary to be kinda like a crazy trade diary. What crazy thing could you come up with?)

0 recs | Comment 29 comments

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Comments

Hmmmmm...

Your ideas intrigue me, and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

I don't know if the Angels would take Duncan for Santana, and I don't really understand trading Encarnacion only to have a Rodriguez/Schumacher platoon taking his place, but I like when people throw this kind of stuff out there.

If the Cardinals were to go after Soriano, it would have to be as an OF. He was a bad 2B, I believe someone once said "He gets to fewer balls than any other second baseman, yet he has far more errors". But from what I've heard he was a very good outfielder.

Then, you could just play Miles at 2B, and you'd have a nice little lineup: Eck, Gonzo, Pujols, Soriano, Edmonds, Rolen, Miles, Yadi, Pitcher

Speculation Rocks!

by Fitz on Nov 14, 2006 8:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Santana

Id love to get him, but I think it would take a little more than just Duncan, possibly Brendan Ryan (whos heating up in AFL) or the other guy whos hitting well out there (forgot his name).

I love the idea of trading for a prospect for the rotattion because they would count for almost nothing against out cash flow.

by gopher100 on Nov 14, 2006 9:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Imagine that trade....

The trade proposal (Ankiel/Juan for Francis) would be the worst trade ever from the Rockies standpoint. The Cards would get a decent 5th starter who will make around $350K and isn't arb eligible yet. They would probably have to throw some cash the Rockies way or pick up a good amount of Juan's salary ($5M in '06). A nice pickup for a team looking for starting pitching (who isn't?).

The Rockies get an average RFer in Encarnacion, when they already have Brad Hawpe ($350K) entrenched in RF. Move Juan to LF or CF? Not with Matt Holliday in left and I can't see Juan playing center. The Rockies also get Ankiel, who is out of options, so that won't help them. So a team always starved for pitching just gave up a pitcher who has had some success in Coors Field, and in return got a guy who would probably ride pine playing in such a strong outfield.

I don't mean to bag on your idea, just wanted to show how bad that trade would be for the Rockies.

As for Soriano, putting him at 2B behind a Cardinals staff that gets lots of groundballs is a bad idea. He's not a very good LFer, he's below average out there, but if he's a 40-40 guy in left field, who cares about his D?

by Baseball addict on Nov 14, 2006 9:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Juan in CF in Colorado

With the thin air up there, and the balls flying out there, Juans nonagressive style of defense might not be a problem.

by gopher100 on Nov 14, 2006 9:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Juan in CF

His half-assed effort would be worse in Colorado. Coors has deep fences and a huge outfield. The left-center gap would be a nightmare for the Rockies, as Holliday is no gold-glover out there.

by Baseball addict on Nov 14, 2006 9:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

pssst:

juan is a good defender, unless you completely disagree with nearly every play by play metric there is for the last five years or so.

by DanUpBaby on Nov 14, 2006 11:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

not quite all

john dewan's +/- system had juan below average between 02-05. he was well above average in 06 however.

"Go Crazy, Folks! Go Crazy!"

by erik on Nov 14, 2006 11:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Lies, damned lies....

all those stats about Juan are based on his performance as a RFer. In CF I think it would be a different story. He's got the arm, but lacks the range and reactions to be a "good" CFer. for me he's best suited to play a corner.

As someone once said: stats are like bikinis, they show a lot but don't show everything.

But that gets away from my main point, and my point was simply what a laughably bad trade that would be for the Rockies. Hell, it'd be great if the Cards could fleece a team in such a way.

by Baseball addict on Nov 15, 2006 1:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

defensive stats

i havent seen one that i liked yet. i am not sure that i ever will. it would be nice to be able to quantify defense, but i just dont think its possible. too many variables. too much subjectivity.

by dmb60614 on Nov 15, 2006 9:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

hoorah...

i love it...
its wonderfulll
I give you props on this one, very clever, very excentric
I like it

Meche.

by Dttl89 on Nov 14, 2006 9:57 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Love it!

Keep the pitcher young and eager to fall in line behind Carp. Sure, I wouldn't mind if we could throw a Zito in there, but love your plan.

by Birdos in Mexico on Nov 14, 2006 10:19 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

pass whatever you are smoking

duncan for e. santana?
encarnacion for anything useful?

you are dreaming. soon you will wake up and return to the real world where you cant dump players you dont want for good cheap starting pitchers.

by dmb60614 on Nov 14, 2006 10:51 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

If a realistic idea is kool-aide

this is smart-water. taste it. you'll know what I mean.

o8o88o888o

by ilillillli on Nov 15, 2006 2:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

this is rediculous

how about duncan for peavy?

sign soriano for $10M

encarnacion for Grady Sizemore.

A beautiful isn't the same thing as a (remotely) plausible idea.

o8o88o888o

by ilillillli on Nov 15, 2006 2:15 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

I apologize.

for everything I said last night.

o8o88o888o

by ilillillli on Nov 15, 2006 8:45 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Hello Again!

1st trade - Duncan for Santana is plausible cause Santana's name has been shopped around at the winter meetings. According to some here, Duncan could have won ROY in years past. It's not too far fetched.

2nd trade - 2 guys of ours for one of theirs. Hell throw in money too. We could dump a OF that nobody likes here, and maybe instead of Ankiel, throw in somebody with better potential. Whatever. To say that this is a horrible trade is crap. It just needs to be tweaked.

Finally after thinking last night a bit more, I've decided that Soriano could be in the OF and we keep that revolving door at 2B. It could be our AAA spot in the line-up. (Miles, whoever)

New Lineup
Soriano
Gonzalez
Pujols
Rolen
Edmonds
Eck
Miles
Molina
Pitch

Bench
Triple A Memphis

Starters
Carp
Reyes
Wainers
Santana
Francis

Here Comes the King! Here Comes the Big #1! Budweiser Beer the King is Second to None!

by OKCardsfan on Nov 15, 2006 9:01 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

ok, ok...

Sorry, I didn't mean to be rude, but here's my take...

1st trade: While Santana's name has certainly been dangled out there, I've heard it mostly refferenced with Miguel Tejada, Torii Hunter, Carl Crawford, Vernon Wells, Miguel Cabrera types. All solidly of a higher calibur than Chris Duncan. If the Cardinals offered Chris Duncan in trade, I don't think its imposible to expect that Arizona would follow up by offering one of its many great young outfielders, the Mets might offer up Milledge, etc. If the Angels are looking to trade Ervin Santana they, in my opinion could do a lot better than Chris Duncan.

And Although Duncan had a great 2006 campaign with the Cardinals, I'm not so sure this is the level of production to expect from Chris in the future. I think that this article is the best dossier Chris Duncan on the net. He had a great year, but it just didn't fit with the rest of his resume.

2nd trade:The Cardinals aren't in control of Rick Ankiel anymore. They would have to resign him. If they did that, I'm pretty sure they couldn't trade him until June, although I'm not completely sure how minor league deals work. The Rockies are rumored to be dangling Jason Jennings, as he is in his walk year, but I doubt they would trade Francis. If they did, I'm confident they could do a lot better than Juan Encarnacion and Rick Ankiel. All the Yankees would have to do would be offer Melky Cabrera and the Cardinals would be out of the race.

...and Soriano...

I don't know what to say. It'd be nice, I'd like to see it happen, but I really don't know. The only way I could see the Cardinals signing him is for the (bogus) 7years/ $77M contract they were rumored to have offered him. I know that's a long time, but I still don't think anyone is going to make as much money as Pujols.

peace.

o8o88o888o

by ilillillli on Nov 15, 2006 10:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

nice comment

thats a lot nicer than what i was thinking about posting, which is why i didnt post it.

to put it simply, my thoughts are that young cheap pitchers are a super value commodity. they worth more than their weight in gold. assuming a GM doesnt make a bone head move (like chris young & adrian gonzalez for adam eaton) we arent going to get an ervin santana type without coughing up rasmus, ottavino/garcia, and maybe some other stuff.

by dmb60614 on Nov 15, 2006 11:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I understand

every point. THis is why I made this diary in the first place. We really have no bargaining chips. Who can we dangle out there? Duncan and Juan. Like everybody said, who would take these guys? I looked at it from the viewpoint of what we need and who we got. I am very afraid we are not gonna get Wolf or Meche or any of them. Pitching is a hot commodity that everybody needs and all we have is money and no chips. However look at erving santana and chris duncan and you're not getting any older. Santana posted ~4.38 ERA this past year. That's not spectacular. That's a middle of the road starter. A 3-5 guy. Francis about the same. I guess what I'm saying is that these two players are not "spectacular" just young. Another thing is that so what if we have to cough up a prospect? It all goes full circle. We did get Adam Wainwright that way. Get the pieces needed to win.

Here Comes the King! Here Comes the Big #1! Budweiser Beer the King is Second to None!

by OKCardsfan on Nov 15, 2006 12:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Agree to disagree

Although I like all of your end results, I really can't see any of the moves you proposed as plausible. Francis or Ervin(no g) Santana probably aren't on the market unless the Angels get a huge right handed bat or the Rockies get a Vernon Wells-calibur centerfielder.

I don't believe that even with this past season Chris Duncan has the value you believe he does. His minor league resume isn't that strong. If we could get a strong bullpen arm for him to flip for a walk-year starter, I think that's great. But he isn't going to net Santana. Juan Encarnacion is a reasonable trading chip. Rick Ankiel isn't even under team control, so proposing a trade involving him simply couldn't happen.

Also, neither Sanata nor Francis profiles as a heavy groundball pitcher, the type the Cardinals tend to persue.

I don't mean to be rude, but none of these trades really seem plausible at all, and one isn't even possible. If you want a young, cheap pitcher from the Rockies, how about Jason Jennings? I doubt it, but maybe Juan + Duncan could get Jennings... I think that's a more reasonable starting point.

peace.

o8o88o888o

by ilillillli on Nov 15, 2006 12:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Gotcha

This whole post was not intended to be how do we get these particular players. It was intended to be more of a this is what we can trade, what can we get type of thing. I like Santana and Francis. I thought of a way to get them. (Although I didn't think enough) What I was also saying is that I don't think the 2nd tier FA SP's will come to the LOU. Everybody needs pitching. I think we are going to have to sacrifice some prospects or players on the table of pitching. We need at least two SP's and I feel we'll get one 2nd tier starter if any. So what do you do? Who do we go after? I promise by the end of the offseason, we will have given up some prospect or player for a SP. (Hopefully not a Mulder clone)

Here Comes the King! Here Comes the Big #1! Budweiser Beer the King is Second to None!

by OKCardsfan on Nov 15, 2006 1:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

how about....

1. chris duncan to pittsburgh (needs a 1st baseman badly) for mike gonzalez. trade mike gonzalez and an and another Cardinals reliever, maybe brad thompson, josh kinney to cleveland for jake westbrook (he's in his walk year and cleveland need relief help. we'd be giving them a strong pre-arbitration reliever from each side, one righty, one lefty). I'm not saying cleveland would for sure do this, but its in the relam of posiblity.

2a. Juan Encarnacion and another righty reliever (whoever's not in the cleveland trade) to Colorado for Jason Jennings (colorado needs a centerfielder, Juan in this offer) Jennings is in his walk year, and as the Rockies are not likely to contend in the NL west, they are taking offers for Jennings. This may or may not work, but its certainl possible.

2b. Anthony Reyes and Juan Encarnacion to Colorado for Jason Jennings and whatever else they want to give. It sounds bad at first, but Reyes doesn't fit the typical mold of a St. Louis pitcher under Duncan. He gives up a lot of flyballs.

While this seems like just one starter for another, the Cardinals could likely get 50-70 more innings out of Jennings than they could Reyes. By offering them Juan as well the salary would be a push and perhaps the Cardinals could afford to bring in a big bat to fill Juan's spot, Soriano possibly. Sign Luis Gonzalez for left, and you're there.

I don't know, its an idea.

o8o88o888o

by ilillillli on Nov 15, 2006 4:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Or maybe...

Duncan would have value to the Devil Rays, who need a big lefty bat and a first baseman. If Sean Casey signs elsewhere—and with a prospect or two tossed in—a Chris Duncan for Jonny Gomes trade doesn't sound totally off the reservation. I'm a big Gomes fan and he'd go a long way to solving our problems against left-handed pitching.

If we could pick up Jake Westbrook, it'd make my winter. The Indians are looking for a closer and are reported to be making two year offers for Mike Stanton in that role. Looper and Flores, maybe? Please?

by liam on Nov 15, 2006 5:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

gomes?

he was terrible last year. 216 .325 .431 .756
20 hrs 59 rbis 53 runs. looks like yadier molina with a little bit of pop and that was only in april. go with rocco baldeli if youre lookin for a tampa surplus guy. 16 hrs 57 rbi .302 .339 .533 872 and he was hurt at the beginning of the year. he has a way higher ceiling than gomes. sure he plays cf but he can switch. and he is a year younger than gomes (24)

by cjwest20 on Nov 15, 2006 9:26 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Gomes

He wasn't terrible last year, he was playing injured. He had shoulder surgery and his rehab is going well from all reports. The 2005 Gomes is the real Gomes. Rocco Baldelli is the future of the D-Rays' outfield. They signed him to what's essentially a five-year contract in his first year of arbitration eligibility. No way in hell is Baldelli going anywhere. Gomes lost his job to Delmon Young and is likely available as a cheap, young, big-bat corner outfielder.

by liam on Nov 15, 2006 11:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs