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luis to the lou

bill madden of the new york daily news grabbed a few moments with la russa last week when the manager was in new york speaking to some life-insurance suits. verbatim:

"When I got home from the Series I called both 'Supe' and Jeff [Weaver] and told them we want them back," La Russa said. "I also told them that this is their time and I understand they have to do what they have to do. I told them we intend to make them what we consider to be very fair offers, commensurate to what we can afford. I would hope the success they've had with us in St. Louis would be a factor in them wanting to stay, but I don't know. In the case of Weaver (who was practically dumped on the Cardinals in mid-season after going 3-10 with a 6.29 ERA for the Angels), I'd ordinarily think we'd have a real good chance of getting him back except for the fact that Boras is his agent."
a few graphs later the article says that "La Russa is now a firm believer in clubs not overpaying to retain their own free agents." you get the distinct impression tony doesn't expect either one to be back in st louis.

i got the exact same thing a couple days ago from an infrequent VEB poster who is pals with a cardinal scout. the scout tells my source that suppan is expected to receive 3- and possibly 4-year offers in the $8m to $9m per year range, with weaver getting nearly as much. the cards won't pay that kind of money, the scout says; they'll "posture" for both pitchers, ie make nominally competitive offers, but are prepared to let them walk. no complaints from me if that's how it comes to pass; at those prices, neither one is worth it.

the same scout says the cardinals have interest in jose cruz jr for the following reasons: he can play all three outfield positions, switch hits, has base-running speed, and could take over in center if edmonds goes down. just a few months ago, several VEBbers expressed a desire for the cardinals to grab cruz for the stretch run after the dodgers dfa'd him in august; he went totally unclaimed and sat out the last two months of the year. he's an interesting player, hits for a low batting average but does everything else pretty well --- good on-base and slugging figures, good baserunner, good defender. his strength is against left-handed pitching, so he'd balance out a st louis outfield that's full of left-handed batters. cruz will be 33 years old next year and is only one season removed from an 18 hr, 50 rbi campaign as a part-timer; sort of at the same career juncture that spiezio was at last spring, ie tossed onto the scrap heap and simply looking for a job. like speezer, he's the son of a former cardinal player. he can probably be had for a few hundred thousand dollars, ie a no-risk proposition; i'd much rather have this guy than taguchi.

that's third-hand information, so take it for what it's worth. i will say this: the guy who passed it to me has provided accurate tips in the past. if he says cruz jr is in the discussion, i believe it. and please observe that he merely says the team has interest --- not that they're on the verge of signing him.

coupla other items from the weekend:

  1. dave duncan says they want wainwright to stay in the bullpen
  2. luis gonzalez is said to be close to a one-year deal with the cards
i'd rather see wainwright in the rotation; that's where the need is. they're already well-stocked in the bullpen, with looper kinney johnson flores hancock thompson and rincon. i mean, that's a whole bullpen right there --- and guys like andy cavazos and dennis dove and god knows who else will be vying for spots in spring training. if you stick wainwright back out there, that means a useful pitcher gets traded for scraps or goes to triple a . . . . well, unless the guy he displaces is looper. that'd be no loss, but with his contract i doubt they can move him unless they're willing to pick up some salary.

the gonzalez tidbit appears to have been supplied by gonzo's agent, which renders it suspect. the cardinals already have two younger, cheaper, better-hitting, left-handed-batting leftfielders on the roster, ie duncan and rodriguez. what sense would it make to pay gonzo $5m or so to put up an .800 ops when the cards can get the exact same thing from duncan/j-rod for a few hundred K? i suppose the cards might be able to give encarnacion away for spare parts, basically as a salary dump, which would create a spot and some payroll space for gonzalez; even at 39 gonzo's a better hitter than en'cion, and he'd come cheaper as well (ie, a one-year commitment vs the two years remaining on en'cion's deal). the nationals and giants are both looking for outfielders and might be willing to take en'cion and his salary off jocketty's hands; that'd free up the money needed to fill out the rotation.

2007 ROSTER MATRIX
LUIS GONZALEZ SCENARIO I

STARTING 8 BENCH ROTATION PEN
molina c
$600K
cruz of
$750K
carpenter rhp
$7.8m
wainwright rhp
$350K
pujols 1b
$15m
rodriguez of
$350K
reyes rhp
$350K
looper rhp
$4.5m
graffanino 2b
$1.5m
bennett c
$600K
meche rhp
$5m
kinney rhp
$350K
rolen 3b
$12m
miles if
$400K
wolf lhp
$6m
johnson lhp
$350K
eckstein ss
$4.5m
taguchi of
$1m
woody rhp
$5m
flores rhp
$500K
gonzo lf
$6m
schumaker of
memphis
narveson lhp
memphis
hancock rhp
$350k
edmonds cf
$8m
ryan if
memphis
---
---
thompson rhp
$400k
duncan rf
$350K
---
---
---
---
rincon lhp
$1.5m
---
---
---
---
---
---
is'hausen rhp
$9m
TOTAL
$48.0m
TOTAL
$3.1m
TOTAL
$24.1m
TOTAL
$17.3m
OVERALL PAYROLL: $92.5m

hmm --- lineup skews heavily to the left side and features two over-35 outfielders in decline . . . . awfully reminiscent of the 2005 team. and the 5th outfielder (taguchi, in this scenario) would end up getting 250 at-bats or so off this roster, which probably ain't good. pretty solid rotation, though; the meche and wolf salaries are envisioned as cheap first-year prices in backloaded deals. i threw graffanino in there just for fun; no idea if the cardinals have any interest. . . . . you'll also note that en'cion has vanished without any apparent compensation; theoretically the cards would get something back, perhaps along the lines of the bigbie / miles package they received last year for ray king. i'm too lazy to figure out what specific players the cards might realistically target in such a trade, so they're invisible in this exercise. supply any replacement-level player who strikes your fancy.

'nother thought re luis gonzalez: maybe the cards think they can get something back for duncan, in which case gonzo becomes the more-or-less everyday lf. (if you missed erik's close look at duncan yesterday, i recommend it.) what might duncan bring back in trade?

Star-divide

ken rosenthal reported yesterday that the pirates would part with a young southpaw starter in exchange for a left-handed bat at first base; sounds like a possible fit. their young pitchers include zach duke, paul maholm, and tom gorzelanny; all have the potential to be solid big-league pitchers. rosenthal also alludes to the potential availability of closer mike gonzalez, which would clear wainwright's return to the rotation and so, in effect, add a starting pitcher. as tempting as that trade looks on the surface, i don't really like gonzalez's long-term value; he's basically a journeyman, bounced around in the minors for 7 years (in the pittsburgh system) and turns 29 years old next spring. he walks 6 men per 9 innings . . . . if the cards were going to trade a young power bat, i'd rather see them take their chances on a young starter who still has potential to tap.

2007 ROSTER MATRIX
LUIS GONZALEZ SCENARIO II

STARTING 8 BENCH ROTATION PEN
molina c
$600K
cruz of
$750K
carpenter rhp
$7.8m
wainwright rhp
$350K
pujols 1b
$15m
schumaker of
$350K
reyes rhp
$350K
looper rhp
$4.5m
graffanino 2b
$1.5m
bennett c
$600K
maholm lhp
$350K
kinney rhp
$350K
rolen 3b
$12m
miles if
$400K
wolf lhp
$6m
johnson lhp
$350K
eckstein ss
$4.5m
j-rod of
$400K
woody rhp
$5m
flores rhp
$500K
gonzo lf
$6m
ryan if
memphis
narveson lhp
memphis
hancock rhp
$350k
edmonds cf
$8m
---
---
---
---
thompson rhp
$400k
en'cion rf
$5m
---
---
---
---
rincon lhp
$1.5m
---
---
---
---
---
---
is'hausen rhp
$9m
TOTAL
$52.6m
TOTAL
$2.7m
TOTAL
$19.5m
TOTAL
$17.3m
OVERALL PAYROLL: $92.1

maholm has the least promise of the three pirate youngsters, but he's still pretty good; his top 10 comps per pecota include danny jackson (#1), steve trout (3), mike hampton (8), and tommy john (10). his #5 comp is bob hendley, the opposing pitcher in sandy koufax's perfect game (he threw a one-hitter and lost). . . . . pecota projects maholm as a league-average pitcher in 2007, close to 3 wins above replacement level. trading duncan would be risky; i'm sure the pirates would be just as nervous --- maybe more so --- about dealing one of their pitchers. if i'm in jock's shoes and the pirates are amenable, i pull the trigger.

note that both of today's scenarios feature payrolls well below the $100m cap joe strauss mentioned on the radio a week or so ago. if the team is really willing to go that high, they could make a big splash this off-season. bottom line re luis gonzalez: it's well known that he and la russa admire each other, and gonzo has been going around now for weeks (ever since the world series) saying he wants to play in st louis, so it won't be shock if he signs. as a general rule, i'm not a big fan of 39-year-old position players; but under certain circumstances gonzalez might be a tolerable option. if nothing else, his signing might precipitate another move or two and make this off-season more interesting than it otherwise would've been.

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wainwright as closer
i think people have been reading too much into that quote.  dave says that if wainwright is in the pen it means they signed some really good starters.  thats basically what the org has been saying all along.  

by dmb60614 on Nov 13, 2006 9:49 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

maybe so
could be i've misread the quote

by lboros on Nov 13, 2006 9:53 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

no, i don't think i read too much in
the article says: "Barring a washout within the market, the club has decided to keep playoff sensation Adam Wainwright in the closer role next spring."

sounds like Plan A is to keep wainwright in the pen; he'll only move back to the rotation if they crap out in the free-agent market.

by lboros on Nov 13, 2006 10:03 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that quote
isnt a direct quote of duncan.  it is apparently strauss's interpretation.  i happen to disagree.

the important lines, imo, are the ones quoting dunc.  dunc says "I hope our pitching staff is strong enough that Wainwright can be our closer. If that's the case we'll have a pretty good pitching staff."

i dont think that means anything different than what we have been hearing all along.  the market will determine what they do with wainwright.

its also my opinion that they wont be able to sign three starters good enough to push wainwright to the pen.

by dmb60614 on Nov 13, 2006 10:06 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

LaDuncan are firm believers...
in the theory that you build your bullpen from the closer to the set-up guys; if the Cardinals are convinced that Izzy won't be ready at the start of the season, Wainwright could be slotted into the closer's role until Izzy is healthy.

Assuming no Izzy and Wainer in the rotation, then who closes? Looper? Kinney? Johnny Wholestaff?

"A man should live forever, or die trying." -- Mike Callahan

by The Ol Goaler on Nov 13, 2006 10:19 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

kinney or looper
i wouldn't necessarily want either one closing in the postseason, but during the reg season --- when you play a lot of weak teams (esp in the nl central) --- i imagine they'd suffice.

by lboros on Nov 13, 2006 10:23 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

just because he doesn't quote them directly
it doesn't follow that this is merely strauss's interpretation. i think he's paraphrasing what the brass told him. good reporters don't write unequivocal statements like "The team has decided to . . . . " without solid info to back up their words. and strauss is a reliable reporter.

by lboros on Nov 13, 2006 10:26 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

luis
though he was a doubles machine this last year, I don't much like the idea of signing gonzo either.  if he was an absolute steal, maybe, but he won't be cheap enough to warrant signing another aging lefty.

as for trading baby dunc, well, his stock won't likely be going up, so we should move him now.  i really don't think he can put up a season's worth of numbers like his past half season in the bigs.  if triple a pitchers could keep him under 25 homers a year, it isn't long before big league pitchers do also, so trade him before the rest of the league figures him out. i'd take zach duke for him in a heartbeat.

by gthedamned on Nov 13, 2006 9:56 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I am with you
I know it's a tough decision for Walt and that's why he makes the big bucks for it but I would like to see Duncan moved as well. I would take Duke for him but if you're dealing with the Bucs, I wouldn't mind Mike Gonzalez either.

Dunc could very well sustain his numbers but he is better suited for 1b or DH and we need pitching.

I wouldn't mind seeing Gonzo in left if Dunc is traded for decent pitcher or packaged for a good one.

by Pujols4Pres on Nov 13, 2006 11:39 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

baby dunc
one thing about chris is that many times a hitter struggles in the AAA's because the command is sub-par there.  in the big leagues, you will be able to see better pitches that are more hittable.  just my two cents.  this is all off the top of my head, so take it like a grain of salt.
Albert Pujols is god with a lowercase "g". Let's go Redbirds, World Series '06 here we come!

by stlsportsfan on Nov 13, 2006 6:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Cruz Jr
Sheesh, I don't know why the Cardinals didn't just pick him up in the first place. I think I was the biggest promoter of him for a mid season pick up. He  fits perfect into our lineup. He hits lefties much better than he hits righties. He is a former gold glover that can play all 3 OF positions. He also can be signed very cheap. This is Taguchi's replacement.

No way we sign Suppan for $8 million or $9 million a year. I still believe Weaver will come back but Boras might not let him. Wow the market has seriously escalated.

Signing Gonzo means we have to trade Duncan than cause I see no use for him.

by DimitroffVodka on Nov 13, 2006 9:56 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

of gonzo and waino and all the rest...
Normally, I'm not a fan of 39 yr old outfielder signings. That said, I actually like Gonzo on next year's team. He would fulfill the same sort of role that Walker did, ie the wise, sage veteran who can contribute both on the field (some) and in the clubhouse.  The other reason I like him is the Cards really need to bridge a gap in the OF for another year or two, then they have a ton of prospects who will be getting very close. (rasmus, stavinoha, jon jay, jones, etc.) As far as Wainwright and the closer/rotation debate, I think he has to be in the rotation.  As good a closer as Im sure he could be, the man has four plus pitches. He has all the options to face a lineup multiple times.  That is too rare to give up.  He remains at closer, two of his pitches (changeup, slider) probably end up stagnating and you've wasted a big part of his talent.  One of the few things the Cardinals do have working for them is good depth of young bullpen type arms.  Not only do they have all of the pitchers who contributed this year, but guys Cory Doyne, Andy Cavazos, Chris Perez, Mark Worrell, etc. Im not saying all of those guys are viable options on opening day, but with that much depth available, as well as what you already have at the major league level, keeping Wainwright in the bullpen, when your greatest need is in the rotation, seems extremely short sighted.  

by the red baron on Nov 13, 2006 10:00 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

nice post.
...so not to ask a dumb question, but Wainwright's full repitoir of pitches is fastball, (uber)curve, slider, change?

It's funny that you mention him stagnating his pitches, as I wasn't truly aware he threw a plus changeup.  I agree it seems foolish to "waste" a variety of weapons like that on one single (though important) inning.  In my mind 180 solid innings out of Wainwright, a number I believe is reasonable to expect, is better than 60 great ones in the pen.  Especially given the strength of this team.  Brian Falkenborg, anyone?

Re: Luis Gonzalez: this is part of the same reason that I like the two-year Edmonds deal, it bridges the gap for some outfield expholiation in 2008-2009.  I've heard reasonable estimates of Rasmus arriving at some point in the 2008 season, and I've heard reports that Stavinoha will begin the season in AAA, consistant with his whirlwind (he's old) trip through the minor league system.  Also, I've Amauray Marti listed as a possible mid-season callup for the 2007 squad.

Just because you seem to more about what's going on than I do, have you heard reasonable ETA's for Jon Jay, Stavi, etc.?  I've heard Jay might start at A+ or AA...

Anyway, I'm just wonderin whether or not a 1-year deal to Luis Gonzalez enough to bridge the gap to the new class.  Any information you have would be much apreciated.

o8o88o888o

by ilillillli on Nov 13, 2006 10:27 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

strength of the team...
I meant to refference the many near-ready minor league bullpen arms, not specifically Brian Falkenborg.  A fine player in his on right, I didn't mean to identify him as the strength of the team.
o8o88o888o

by ilillillli on Nov 13, 2006 10:29 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

it'll likely be more than 1 year
before any of those outfielders are ready.

cody haerther might be the best bet to become a candidate for big-league playing time in 2008. he's only 23 and has already spent a year and a half in double a. he struggled pretty badly for much of last season, but he's young and has room to grow. if he bounces back and has a good year in 2007, he might become an option for 2008, at least in a part-time role.

stavinoha looks like the new john gall --- he'll probably be at triple a this season, but i'm betting he's a bench player at best in 2008. as for marti --- he strikes out a lot and doesn't draw any walks. you can get away with that against class A pitching; i'm skeptical that he can hit against major leaguers.

john jay might leap to double A this year; that's what stavinoha did. it would put jay on track for 2009 delivery, right alongside rasmus.

by lboros on Nov 13, 2006 11:27 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Pet Peave
Regarding the use of "plus"; it's getting misused more and more.  

'Plus' means that it the pitch among the best of that type of pitch in the MLB...Wainwright's slider/change are nowhere close to that and fastball isn't there either.  90-95 is above average, slider is probably about average maybe a tick below, changeup is below average.  His curve probably even rates as plus-plus... as I can't really think of a better curve out there.

People have this misconception that because you have a good major league pitch, it has to be plus...that's just not the case at all.  Carpenter has a plus curve...that's it.  His stuff really plays higher than that because of his ridiculous command, but a plus pitch is really not that common and not that critical for a legitimately great pitcher to have more than one.  Like I said Carpenter has an above average fastball, plus curve, above average tick above cutter and a show-me change: that could be your back-to-back Cy Young winner.

"Average" pitches are still not going to be hit if the hitter isn't looking for it and it is located...and I don't think a lot of fans understand how much of a weapon each additional functional pitch really is.  

If a pitcher has an average/above fastball, curve, slider and change across the board with location...he's a very good #2.  It's hard to account for 4 pitches that differentiate in break and speed, let alone location too.  

Pujols > God

by joker24 on Nov 13, 2006 3:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Where do you get that definition?
A 95 mph fastball is outstanding.  If 90mph is, in your defintion, above average, then it'd be a plus.

by sdrone on Nov 13, 2006 3:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No
'90-93 touching 95' is above average.  That's what Wainwright is.  Hitting 95 on occasion and sitting around 95 are two very different things.

Touching 95 is not outstanding: how many guys out there touch 95?  Does anyone think Looper's fastball is by itself outstanding?  Kinney's?  Falkenbourg's?  Carpenter's?  Isringhausen?  Sosa's?  Reyes'?  Hancock's?  Weaver's?  That's 10 (including Wainwright) out of the 19 pitchers the Cardinals used this year that can touch 95.  If we had 10 pitchers that had true plus fastballs, we wouldn't have to worry about the Cardinals pitching staff.

Pujols > God

by joker24 on Nov 14, 2006 6:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

being able to throw the heat is great
but pitch movement is as important as sheer speed.  That's why guys like Mariano (who gets exceedingly late movement on his cut fastball) is so much better than Farnsworth (who can ratchet it up to triple digits).
Acquire Jason Schmidt!

by azruavatar on Nov 14, 2006 11:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Right, but wrong examples
Farnsworth isn't a great reliever because he has literally no command of the zone, he actually has a lively fastball.  He simply can't throw quality strikes and ML hitters are going to hit 100 just as hard as 90 if it's right down the middle.  If he could locate his stuff, he'd be as dominant a starter as there is.  Zumaya is Farnsworth with some semblance of command (as long as it isn't to 3rd base) which makes him disgustingly good.  Unfortunately, the Tigers are going to waste him in the 'pen.

Wainwright doesn't have tremendous life on his fastball, it's actually rather straight, he just locates it well and it also plays up because of the rest of his tool-bag of pitches.  A stand-alone "plus" fastball he does not have.  Looper probably has just as good a raw fastball, he just doesn't have location/complimenting stuff.

Rivera techincally isn't throwing fastballs, he's pumping in cutters.  A 95 mph cutter is insanity, especially since he can bury it into lefties and spray it all around to right-handers.

Pujols > God

by joker24 on Nov 15, 2006 2:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

my pet peeve: being corrected w/wrong info
I dont mean to be a dick, but you are completely mistaken on the meaning of a 'plus' rating being applied to a pitch.  The plus designation is based on the 20 to 80 scouting scale.  In this scale, a 50 is considered average when applied to any given tool or pitch that a player possesses.  Whenever a player has a tool that rates a 60, that tool is said to be a plus tool.  It is not one of the best of something or other.  The same is true of pitches.  When a pitch is above average, it is a 'plus' pitch.  A pitch that rates as a 70 is said to be a "plus-plus" pitch.  For instance, Joel Zumaya possesses a plus-plus fastball.  Scouts do not throw 80s around very often.  That is all that plus means when applied to a tool or a pitch.  By the way, in case you're wondering, all of that information is from the Baseball America prospect handbook.  

by the red baron on Nov 16, 2006 6:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Peeve me baby one more time
Thanks for the regurgitation lecture on the 20-80, and that description is absolutely accurate.  Your application regarding Wainwright is...not so much and demonstrates a total lack of understanding about either the concept or Wainwright himself.  It'd be hard for your statement of "four plus pitches" to be further from the truth.  

#1. 90-93 touching 5's in relief is not a 60 fastball.  It's better than average, but it is not plus.  55 if you believe in breaking the strict 2-8.  10 guys who made appearances on the Cardinals famously "soft-tossing staff" this year threw just as hard and A-Dub doesn't have any fancy movement.  Start him and it'll probably be 89-93 hitting a 4.  

#2.  His curve is plus-plus.  It's probably not a true 80 but I really can't think of a better curve out there.  Beltran knew it was coming and froze solid.

#3.  His slider/cutter is at best fringe average.  Nowhere near plus, not even close.  Has cutter movement without cutter speed-->not special.  It's effecitveness is derived from having a fastball that has to be respected and the hammer.

#4.  His changeup is a thoroughly below average ML pitch, fringy period.   Pretty good arm-speed but it doesn't have the break to be good.

Reading and understanding are two very different things.  (Also a suggestion, don't read BA religiously, they are like the weatherman, sometimes right sometimes wrong)

Pujols > God

by joker24 on Nov 16, 2006 3:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Good post
Because he has the pitches and the durability to do it, as well as the clutch ability, why not just break the mold of closer?  Specifically, why not make Wainwright the go-to guy in key innings late, say seventh through ninth, then leave him in for the rest of the game.  This would make more use of his full repetoire (sp?), and would still allow for his use on a more frequent basis and in clutch situations.  Seems like putting him in just for the ninth inning is rather arbitrary anyway.  Use him when you need him.  

by Zack Morris on Nov 13, 2006 4:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Because you can't do that
If your plan is to leave him in for multiple innings, you eliminate the possibility of using him for several days.

If he pitches the 7th through the 9th, he's not pitching the next day, nor the day after that most likely.

by sdrone on Nov 13, 2006 5:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But with Wainwright in the bullpen
They'll be deep, especially once Izzy is healthy.  You can run a "traditional" bullpen inbetween.  Closers only make something like 50 appearances per year at the most anyway; why not get the most out of them?  

by Zack Morris on Nov 13, 2006 6:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Minors
Having watched them a few times, I don't think you want Worrell or Doyne on the roster next year. Ugh.

by Pokey Joe on Nov 13, 2006 10:23 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Duncan in trade?
I know that this is a bit of an old rumor, but I still like the way this 3-way-er sounds.  And I think that its fairly plausible...

Chris Duncan, a 1st baseman masquerading as an outfielder, to Pittsburgh for LHRP Mike Gonzalez. Pittsburgh is a blackhole at first base and Duncan would be a far cheeper alternative than signing Casey, Millar, Garciapara, or another free agent the the Pirates could think of.  Duncan also will be cheap and under team controll for years to come, as the Pitates won't likely be contending the next couple of years.

Step 2, Trade Gonzalez and a Cardinals-produced supliment to the White Sox for Mark Buehrle, a team with 6 starters, depirately trying to find a place for Brandon McCarthy.  The White Sox have recently been rumored to have contacted Jamie Walker, a shut-em-down leftie from Detroit.  Gonzalez offers a younger, more powerful option.

As for who to add to Gonzalez... maybe Miles, for an infield backup, a minor league catcher, more relief help...  I don't know, it seems plausible to me.  The Buehrle step might be a bit of a reach, but given Jaret Wrights recent trade value, I don't think its totally out of the question.  I also could see Jake Westbrook and the Indians replacing Buehrle and the White Sox in this scenario.  Thoughts?

o8o88o888o

by ilillillli on Nov 13, 2006 10:43 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

whoops...
I didn't click on the "read more" until now... that explains how I missed all the Pirates info.
o8o88o888o

by ilillillli on Nov 13, 2006 10:52 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Personally
I would rather just keep Gonzalez rather than trading for a pitcher who was worn down last year.  Buehrle - who was at the World Series games in St. Louis wearing a Cardinal hat - can be picked up for 2007 on the cheap without giving up any players.

by Robb on Nov 13, 2006 10:53 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Buehrle
I meant to say picked up for 2008, not 2007

by Robb on Nov 13, 2006 10:53 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

jared weaver
was also in Cards gear, as was Mookie Wilson; doesn't mean anything.

by cardsrul on Nov 13, 2006 4:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Buehrle
Considering Buehrle was born and raised on St. Charles and has mentioned several dozen times about wanting to play for the Cardinals before he retires - him being a fan of the team in the World Series tends to carry more weight with me than the brother of one of the starters.

by Robb on Nov 13, 2006 4:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, but...
Jared Weaver and Mookie Wilson had family playing for the Cards.  Buehrle didn't.

by Quietude on Nov 13, 2006 4:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No way Miles get traded
not unless its some kind of Polanco for Rolen deal.  
He called fate's bluff on a cool New York night, October 19th, 2006.

by Number47 on Nov 13, 2006 11:29 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wow, one of the most informative posts I have ever
read.  Good job LB.

My thoughts:

  1. I like Wainwright in the pen and more to the point, I do think me need him there.  However if any of the other guys shows they can step up and Wainwright can be a half-way decent starter, I don't have a problem with him in the rotation.
  2. I agree with you on Gonzo.  I don't see a reason to sign him, unless he is in a 4th OF role and comes appropriately cheap.  I doubt he'll post more than a .750 OPS next year.
  3. I completely agree with you on Suppan and Weaver.  I doubt we will sign either- which at the money they will comand is a good thing.  I also think it is insane that any GM signs Weaver to a big contract.  I further think that Weaver could be back on the scrap heap within two years.

by Zubin on Nov 13, 2006 10:51 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

possible error
In the scenario II matrix, you've got rodriguez and j-rod down as bench OFers.  However, they're listed with different salaries, so maybe there's some other rodriguez I'm not aware of?

by john vb on Nov 13, 2006 10:57 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

my screwup
one of those j-rods ought to be schumaker . . .

by lboros on Nov 13, 2006 11:16 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

On the subject of pitching...
I currently live in Seattle, and have for the past three years.  Prior to living here, I had paid attention to the Mariners due to my then girlfriend's ties to this area.  It could be said that the M's are my "second favorite team", in a very third grader sense.

Over the past few years, I have watched Gil Meche with apprehension and frustration.  The guy has natural stuff, but is a headcase.  No one is really sure what shook his confidence.  But it was indeed shaken at one point.  He has a tendency to throw high garbage that many hitters love to smash.  I would worry that this would be a problem in the launching pad that is Busch III.  He also has a tendency to labor during his starts in hotter climates.  If you guys can find some video, check out his starts in Tampa or Texas.

Meche also tends to work himself into jams and winds up leaving prior to, or just after the fifth inning with a pitch count well above 100.

All that said, I think that the Cards could get him for a song.  He has stuff and it would be interesting to see what Duncan can do with him.  If Gil does in fact wind up in St. Louis, and if Duncan is able to add his name to "The Great Reclaimation Project", then I think that people should start mentioning Duncan's name more frequenly with the likes of Mazzone.

The main problem I would have would be the ribbing I would take from my friends around here, all of whom are die-hard M's fans.

-J

by cinemarxist on Nov 13, 2006 12:18 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

You mean ribbing like...
"I can't believe how many World Series you guys have won."

"Would you ask Pujols not to destroy us if we every managed to actually get to a World Series and face him?"

by sdrone on Nov 13, 2006 12:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

"I can't believe that World Series..."
Hahaha!  Pretty much, yeah.  Actually my friend Matt is ticked off because he hates La Russa, thinks he's a bad manager, and hates those who are quick to use the word genius to describe him.

While I will never call La Russa a genius, I will also never call him a bad manager.  You don't win five pennants and two World Series by being a bad manager.

Of course, he is a life-long M's fan...and La Russa did manage the A's.  Hmmm...maybe that's it.

(Also, as an aside, he has told me not to discuss sports with him as I am also a Steelers fan and he says that it is totally unfair that both of my teams win championships within the same calander year...I have yet to tell him that my favorite hockey team is the St. Louis Blues...so I don't think he'd have to worry about a trifecta.)

-J

by cinemarxist on Nov 13, 2006 8:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

"The launching pad that is Busch III'?
You should check the park factors for the 30 MLB parks last year.  Busch was a tougher homer park than notorious pitchers' parks like Petco Park.  I think it was the 22nd most homer-friendly park in the big leagues.  I'm not sold on Meche but I've seen nothing to indicate that Busch is a "launching pad".  Quite the contrary.

by chuckb on Nov 13, 2006 1:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You're right...
My comment about it being a launching pad had more to do with the earlier part of the season.  And perhaps I overlooked the fact that a lot of those homers came from Pujols.  Oh, and lest we forget Mulder's homer in the opener.
-J

by cinemarxist on Nov 13, 2006 8:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Park Factors
According the link below, Busch III was 19th in HR rate out of the 30 MLB stadiums and 20th overall in terms of runs scored.  Overall I think it would be safe to call it a slight to moderate pitchers park.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor

by holden on Nov 14, 2006 8:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

hmmm
I like the idea of a Maholm-Duncan trade (with whatever other prospects have to change hands to even it out) but would TLR be comfortable with Reyes and Maholm in the rotation?  I think the market will dictate that we put two (near) rookies in the rotation  be it Reyes, Wainwright, Maholm or whoever but I just wonder how they will do under TLR and DD.  

I'd love to get a cheap starter back for Duncan even if they only project to be league average.  I'm not convinced of Duncan's numbers are repeatable at all but unless we acquire another league minimum talent for the roster, I don't think we can financially trade him away and sign some high priced veteran.

Acquire Jason Schmidt!

by azruavatar on Nov 13, 2006 12:46 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Duncan at 1b
I think most of us have seen the NY fan begging for a Rolen for A-Rod and NY pick up the differnce in payroll.  Although I do not think NY would pickup all the differnce, I do believe that they would pick up most and that would leave an interesting possiblity.

A-Rod move back to SS (he was a GG), Eckstien to 2b, Pujols to 3b (TLR once said Albert would be a GG at 3b) and Duncan to 1b. That would leave a lineup of;

Eckstein 2b
Gonzo - lf
Pujols - 3b
A-Rod - ss
Edmonds - cf
Juan E or Replacement - rf
Duncan - 1b
Molina - c
Pitcher

With Rolen you have a great 3b, an avg ss, and who knows at 2b. With A-Rod you have a Good 3b, a GG SS, good 2b, avg 1b, and two MVPs at 3b and ss. Cost will only be 3-4mil more(depending on money from NY) and that is what they were looking to spend on a new 2b.  Plus trade off Juan E and Rincon for project pitcher and a replacement rf.

I believe A-Rod would be more constistant for STL.  He would not have to play for the second worst fans in baseball(Philly #1)

PS. all the matrix leave out the need for a 3b/1b/of guy and a 2b/ss/of/c/p/3b/1b/ph/ballboy/etc... guy.

Andy S

by apaul1029 on Nov 13, 2006 1:14 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

sidebar
Why the Heck did they trade off Luna for a short fat gangster like Belliard?  He would solve the ss/2b/3b/1b/of problem.
Andy S

by apaul1029 on Nov 13, 2006 1:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That "fat gangster"
saved the Cards' asses in the LDS. I doubt if Luna could've played better.

by cardsrul on Nov 13, 2006 4:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

no way.
  1. A-Rod doesn't want to leave NY, and Cashman has said he's not going anywhere. they just traded Sheffield... they need to keep some of their power bats. A-Rod has a no-trade clause, and i don't think he'd wave it to come to StL. he gets a lot of ad money by playing for the Yankees. nobody gets national ads playing for the Cards, not even Pujols.
  2. Yankees wouldn't do a straight-up trade. A-Rod is a better player than Rolen, and Cashman isn't an idiot. he'll require us to trade one of our best SP prospects (Reyes or Wainwright) or a bunch of our 2nd-tier guys. and even then, i doubt the Yankees would pay any of A-Rod's salary. we simply can't do that... we'd lose all the payroll flexibility we now have and not get enough in return.
  3. Eck isn't playing 2B. i wish people would stop talking about it. he is a better SS than he'd be at 2B.
  4. Pujols isn't going anywhere. his recurring injuries (esp. foot) will ensure that he stays at the position of least taxation: 1B. plus, he just won the Gold Glove. why would you replace two GG infielders when you don't need to?
this isn't happening.

by kindred on Nov 13, 2006 1:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with almost all of your points,
but what is your evidence that Eck would either a) refuse to play 2nd or b) would be a mediocre or worse defensive 2nd sacker?  Has Eck ever said anything to that effect?  Have any baseball people (players, any of his coaches, etc.), ever said anything to the effect that he wouldn't work as a 2B?

I'm not saying you're wrong, I really want to know what the basis for that opinion is.  I keep reading these statements downplaying the benefits of Eck at 2nd but I never hear anything from the horse's mouth or from baseball people in a position to know.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 13, 2006 1:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i've never heard Eck comment on it...
... i'd imagine he'd play anywhere TLR put him and be happy about. but i also imagine that he'd be happier at SS.

as for his ability... i have read stuff about it, but i can't remember where, so i'll just appeal to your intuition.

  • when turning double-plays, Eck is much better suited to throw from the SS position, so his momentum can add velocity to his relays. Belliard (and Grudz), had the pure arm strength to turn the DP while falling away from the bag, but i'm not sure that Eck does. same story with fielding balls up the middle... at SS, his momentum gives him extra velocity on his throws. plus, Rolen can help cut off a lot of balls in the SS hole, so Eck doesn't have to throw very many from deep in the hole.
  • the angles for a 2B are much sharper than for a SS. if Eck has to move in any direction to field a ball, and if he has to rush his throw to first, he'll be throwing almost purely with his arm. at SS, no matter where he fields the ball, he's much more square to 1B, so he can get more of his body into his throw.
but disregard all that if you like. A-Rod still isn't coming, for the other reasons i gave (and more).

by kindred on Nov 13, 2006 1:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I don't think you can put a guy
with permanent plantar fascitis at the hot corner.

by sdrone on Nov 13, 2006 1:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Way
I don't know about A-Rod not wanting to come here.
  1. He is a buddy of Pujols.
  2. You can get national endorsements. I can see Pujols' face in any mall at the sunglass hut or sports store. We may not see many comercials because quite frankly I have no idea what Pujols is saying when he talks. I know on the other hand that A-Rod can drive a Pepsi truck.
That being said only in our dreams is A-Rod coming here. Maybe if we worked out a three team trade with the Rox (Yanks get Helton we get A-Rod and the Rox don't have to pay anyone and get say Juan and Looper) and that only works if you have some drinks and squint really hard.

by Harknights on Nov 13, 2006 2:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

rebuttal...
1. every Latin player in the league - no matter how vaguely you define "Latin" in A-Rod's case - is Pujols' "best friend". so are half the white guys, and i'd guess that at least 1/4 of the African-Americans. Luna was Pujols' best friend. so was Polanco. now Belliard is. and Gonzo is a great buddy of Pujols.

name me on Latin player that Pujols isn't buddy-buddy with (besides Encarnacion). doesn't mean they'll all be on the Cards in '07.

2. big difference between Pepsi on national TV and being on a poster in a Sunglass Hut. Pujols can speak well enough to deliver 5 words at the end of an interview. Hell, in that Pepsi commercial, A-Rod doesn't say a single word. he just nods and drinks a Pepsi. i think Pujols could handle that.

the simple fact is that there are huge ad opportunities in NY and very few in StL. this has always been the case. this isn't really something about which we may disagree... it's a fact: A-Rod can make more money in NY than he can in StL. and we all know that A-Rod will play for a last-place team if they'll pay him the most, so we know what's important to him.

by kindred on Nov 13, 2006 2:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

oh...
... and the most important point: A-Rod has said that he isn't leaving NY, and he has a no-trade clause. he wants to end his career there. Cashman is saying the same thing.

so, for this to work, we'd have to disbelieve both Cashman and A-Rod (who are speaking logically), and then expect Jock to pull the trigger on a deal that would likely handicap the club financially and cost us a prospect or two.

all while we have a potential HOF candidate already playing 3B. it's silly to even speculate about this.

by kindred on Nov 13, 2006 2:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

A-Rod talk here
is just like trying to fight the Borg; it's futile.

by cardsrul on Nov 13, 2006 4:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Pujols
everybody is his best friend, not just Latin players.  he talks to everyone at first base.  it makes me laugh.  it probably annoys Tony.

by madding on Nov 13, 2006 7:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Do you mean you see Pujols face
on any Sunglass Hut in St. Louis?

I live in Chicagoland.  I never see Pujols on TV, print, anything.

by sdrone on Nov 13, 2006 3:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I've seen him
out here in CA, and he's also done Nike TV ads (remember the weird mask ads?). This is a testament to how marketable and outstanding Pujols is, and has nothing to do with him being in St. Louis. You could put him anywhere and he'd be in some ads.

by lawman3842 on Nov 13, 2006 4:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Pujols ads
I'm sure you will see him in more ads now that he's a member of a defending champ.

by madding on Nov 13, 2006 7:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

questions...
  1. Is it the consensus view that we'd expect Lil Dunc to put up at least an OPS of .800, especially if he platoons?
  2. Is it the consensus view that Gonzo (likely) won't be able to muster better than an .800 OPS, even if he platoons?
  3. At this stage in his career, is Gonzo any less of a defensive liability than Duncan? Is he even healthy?
  4. if, by trading Duncan, we can acquire a league-average starting pitcher + Gonzo, would that be better than simply signing a league-average starting pitcher for the 5 million or so that Gonzo will command, thus ensuring that we keep control of Duncan for the next 4-5 years at cheap rates?
i'm all for the "trade high" mindset. but i'm not sure that trading Duncan for a mediocre bullpen arm or a league-average starter - and then signing Gonzo for 1 or 2 years @ 5 mil per to compensate - is really trading high. that 5 million could go to pitching. unless we can get an average (or better) young starter who is several years from free agency, i just don't see the logic here. even if we could get said pitcher... is he really going to be that much more valuable than Narveson? is he really going to be worth the 5 million we'd lose to Gonzo?

i'd like to see Gonzo on this team, but not at the expense of cash being better spent elsewhere, or of taking a roster spot/playing time away from somebody else just because he's a vet. i'd like to see Gonzo in StL and Enc gone... it'd be a salary wash, basically, and if the Cards could get anything in return for Enc, the net result could be great.

i just don't see that happening.

by kindred on Nov 13, 2006 1:37 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I wonder how Narvie projects vs Maholm
and I wish I could figure out what the hell this organization views its prospects as...  

I'd be for giving Narveson a rotation shot in most years but I hope we don't wind up with three <6IP a start pitchers in the rotation.  I really think that the high IP in the middle of the season (circa the White Sox whipping our asses) caused the bullpen collapse.

Carpenter can be counted on 7IP usually but we need to have at least three pitchers that average 6IP.  I don't think we should (not "can", simply "shouldn't") count on Reyes for 6IP so 2/3 of the remaining spots need to at least exhibit durability and consistancy from game to game.  Even if it is consistant mediocrity.

Acquire Jason Schmidt!

by azruavatar on Nov 13, 2006 1:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

weaver ...
having played for big bucks on both coasts with disastrous results, I hope he tells Boras he can live on making only $1 billion off his clients this winter and re-signs here in the $7 million/year range.

In this market, I have no hope of getting Suppan back. Timing in life is everything, no? I have to give the guy props. Unlike many of his former teammates who tried to negotiate through the press during their walk season, the guy kept his mouth shut, put up big numbers in the second half and hit the jackpot in October. Sigh.  

by bbqbirdy on Nov 13, 2006 1:47 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Graffanino?
Go with Adam Kennedy, him and Eck have played well together in the past and he won't break the bank.

by lopey986 on Nov 13, 2006 1:50 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

While I like Gonzo and wouldn't mind his bat
even if it isn't on the level of a 2004 or 2005 Larry Walker, something also to be taken into consideration is park factors.

Gonzo's key attribute was the high number of 2Bs he hit this past season.  Well, Busch Stadium III ranked 27th in the league last year in park factor for two baggers.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 13, 2006 1:53 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Gil Meche
I just saw that he ranks second to Zito in pitcher abuse points. Do we want another time bomb? While I do think Meche is the type of pitcher Dunc can fix I just have a Brett Tomko fealing about him...either his arm or his head will blow up.

by Harknights on Nov 13, 2006 2:16 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

RE: Meche - I follow the M's pretty closely...
...and his head will blow up.  It tends to do so at least once a season.
-J

by cinemarxist on Nov 13, 2006 8:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This just in... Valentin signs with the Mets
From ESPN:
Jose Valentin was a pleasant surprise for the New York Mets at second base in 2006, and the team appears ready to reward the 37-year-old veteran.

Multiple reports out of New York indicate that the Mets and Valentin have agreed on a one-year contract believed to be worth at least $3 million.

Valentin signed a one-year deal worth $912,500 with the Mets before the 2006 season and batted .271 with 18 home runs and 62 RBI after taking over the starting second baseman duties from Kaz Matsui in May.

by Zubin on Nov 13, 2006 2:19 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

LB, do you really this at 39
Gonzo
 is a better hitter than Juan'Cion is at 31?

Considering Luis would be moving from the hot thin air of Arizona to the hot heavy air of St Louis, I can't see him posting a .800 OPS again and I think a .750 OPS would be a stretch.  On the other hand Juan is a safe bet to post a .750 OPS.  Bottom line is I would be reluctant to declare Luis a better hitter than Juan at this stage of their respective careers.

Even if you think they are equal as hitters, consider the feilding.  Despite the criticism he gets here, Juan is a plus defender.  I think we will be lucky is Luis is an average defender at age 39.

by Zubin on Nov 13, 2006 2:31 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Juan vs Gonzo
Postseason avg:

Juan 28 games - .183
Gonzo 24 games - .253

Gonzo wouldn't be a total waste of a postseason roster spot like Juan has been.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 13, 2006 2:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Does this mean you rather have
Pepper Martin than Scott Rolen?

Post-season stats are a notoriously bad way to judge a player's worth.

by Zubin on Nov 13, 2006 2:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why would we want to keep a player
who has now been benched in two seperate postseasons by two seperate managers?

Last year:

Gonzo - .271/.796 15 HRs 52 2Bs 73 RBIs 58 SO
JuanE - .278/.760 19 HRs 25 2Bs 79 RBIs 86 SO

I don't believe Juan has a future with this team past his contract, so I really do value Gonzo in 2007 higher than I do 1 more year of Juan.

It isn't an either or but Gonzo at his current age isn't much of a step down from Juan.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 13, 2006 5:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Intangibles...
I really hate using this word, but it really does apply to someone like Gonzo. He brings equal talent to Juan (IMO) and he's a much better clubhouse leader. This team was in desperate need of a leader last season, luckily Jimmy took the role in October. I'd take Gonzo over Juan any day of the week.
Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Nov 13, 2006 2:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well I'd take him
for one year and $3-4M anyway, but $6M is too much.

I agree with you, that this team needs a clubhouse leader.  However it seems to me there are probably a number of players out there that can do it.  We need not overpay nor delude ourselves about what kind of hitter or feilder we are getting.

by Zubin on Nov 13, 2006 2:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

gonzo's worst OPS
of the last decade is still better than encarnacion's career high. en'cion is a .760 OPS guy --- never has been, or will be, anything more. gonzalez put up a .796 ops last year at age 38; he was healthy all season and finished strong (.828 ops in the 2d half). i don't see why he couldn't put up .796 again at 39.

so yeah, until given evidence to the contrary i still think gonzo's a better hitter, even at their respective ages.

by lboros on Nov 13, 2006 4:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

lboros
well put.  I didn't see the discussion had gone on down here, I basically compared the two last season.
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 13, 2006 5:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Double machine
Hey guys, LTRFTP...

Can anybody see how an all-american doubles hitter would be underavlued in an OPS evaluation?  I got in to a brief discussion with a friend on the topic, but couldn't really sort it out.  

A double scores runners from first, and also puts the hitter in scoring position.  The hitter can score without a hit after a leadoff double, prevents the double play, brings the outfield in a few steps, the infield back a few steps, and so on.  Could a 50 2b/15 HR guy be considered more valuable than a 20/25 guy, even though it produces the same isolated power numbers?

Of course, a doubles hitter might be mis-cast as a number #2 hitter, as a double takes the bat out of albert's hands.

by Jonathan23 on Nov 14, 2006 12:05 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know about that...
...if Gonzo did bat 2nd, would teams...with 1 out (at worst) want to put Albert on with Rolen and Edmonds batting after that?

Probably, as both Edmonds and Rolen do hit into about 10 DPs a year each...however as a Redbird fan, I like my odds with 2 on, 1 out and Rolen/Edmonds stepping in.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 14, 2006 12:16 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh
and Welcome!
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 14, 2006 12:16 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'll bet you a cold frosty budweiser
that Juan'Cion's OPS is within 25 points of Gonzo's when adjusted for park factor in '07.  That is if Gonzo is even able to log significant playing time.

by Zubin on Nov 14, 2006 12:44 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Big League Chew...
Perhaps his playing will be better if he chews more gum in the pre-season and then spits it out for some crazy fan to sell on eBay?
-J

by cinemarxist on Nov 13, 2006 8:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Gonzo & JuanE
I'd welcome Gonzo at the right price. I also think Cards are stuck with JuanE for two more seasons. Hope I'm wrong on that. Is an everyday outfield of Gonzo in LF, Edmonds in CF and a platoon system of Duncan and JuanE in RF a realistic possibility?

If so, does Schumaker take J-Rod's spot on the team as a reserve outfielder? I can't see team keeping two LH-hitting outfielders outside of the "four starters." Will be interesting to see what kind of RH bat team can come up with for the other reserve OF spot. Cruz seems to make sense if he indeed has the decent numbers vs. LHPs.

Baily

by Baily on Nov 13, 2006 4:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

skip bats LH
the poor guy.  Sucks being an 8th outfielder type.
2006 stl cardinals - all of the glory, none of the goat hair.

by SleepyCA on Nov 13, 2006 7:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

LB, or anyone, do you know ...
why J D Drew is bailing out of the Dodgers even tho he can continue to play under contract there? He cracked 100 rbi for the first time, was fairly healthy, team was playing in October ... ... what gives? Not enough God Squad teammates? Southern Cal too hedonistic? Help me here. I don't get it.

by Urban Pawnee on Nov 13, 2006 2:38 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

as far as i know...
... Drew hasn't given a reason. but i'd imagine it's a combination of two factors: Boras thinks he can get more money (probably true), and Drew is sick of L.A., and i can't blame him for that.

there aren't that many power-hitting OFs on the market this year. Drew is still reasonably young, and if Lee and Soriano go in the 5 yr/15 mil per range, it wouldn't be a stretch for Drew to get 4 yr/12-13 per, which would add significant cash to the deal he was under, especially if he hated playing in L.A.

i hope he doesn't end up on the Cubs. he could murder in the park.

by kindred on Nov 13, 2006 2:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

indeed
In the two years I've been living here, I've been to about a dozen Dodger games, and Drew gets booed mercilessly.  He is hated more here than he was in STL, if that is possible.

I wouldn't be surprised if his reason for leaving has less to do with money and more to do with not hearing any more "BOOOOOO, DREEEEWWWWW, BOOOOOO!" jeers.

2006 stl cardinals - all of the glory, none of the goat hair.

by SleepyCA on Nov 13, 2006 2:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If there's a player who can -
hit .280, knock in 100 runs, and get booed, it would be him.

by Urban Pawnee on Nov 13, 2006 2:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmmmm ...

his numbers were OK, but I'd hardly put him in the upper income bracket, but maybe I'm just conservative with my Monopoly money. I guess I just have a subjectively sour impression of him as a Cardinal outfielder. Clutch he wasn't.

by Urban Pawnee on Nov 13, 2006 2:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

on the contrary
drew had two huge clutch hits in the playoffs for st louis. one came in game 5 of the nlds vs arizona --- the cards were 4 outs from elimination, trailing 1-0 to schilling, when drew hit a game-tying bomb off him. doesn't get much clutcher than that.

the previous year, in game 2 of the nlcs vs the mets, he hit a game-tying double with two outs in the 8th inning. cards already were down 0-1 in the series and facing an 0-2 hole; big clutch hit.

they lost both games, but drew gave them a chance in both cases.

by lboros on Nov 13, 2006 4:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Drew was clutch
i agree 100 percent with Larry...i remember both instances watching the games and being like "come on Drew, doin something worth a damn" and both times i jumped up and lost my mind...he was a turd, but he WAS clutch
"back.. at the track...at the wall..homerun." -joe buck

by omshagome on Nov 13, 2006 10:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You mean other than...
...hitting the Game tying HR vs. Schil in game 5 of the 2001 LDS....come to think of it that wasn't very clutch. Being the only run we scored off of him.

by Harknights on Nov 13, 2006 4:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Kennedy COULD break the bank
Most of the discussions going on is that Kennedy looks at himself as the best of the 2nd base crop(outside Soriano) and that he intends to cash in.  He'll probably cost upwards of 4M a season.

And if Valentin is getting around 3M, expect Kennedy's offer to shoot up to probably at least 5.

I like the idea of Duncan for any of the left handed starters from Pittsburgh.  It would give the Cardinals another young starter, which is something they've lacked.  And if they could get Zach Duke, that'd be amazing.  I'm still kind of sad they didnt make more of an effort to get Perez when he was being cut loose.  I know he's kind of a headcase himself, but Perez a few years ago was an absolute stud and was expected to be competing for Cy Youngs by now.

by mtalken on Nov 13, 2006 2:51 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Umm...
didn't you link to the article:

"Multiple reports out of New York indicate that the Mets and Valentin have agreed on a one-year contract believed to be worth at least $3 million."

Last year he made less than one mil.

by Just Rope Ball on Nov 13, 2006 3:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, you beat me to it.
I was thinking 2006 for some reason.

by Zubin on Nov 13, 2006 3:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Damn, sorry...
was thinking of 2006.

by Zubin on Nov 13, 2006 3:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmmmmm ...
his numbers were OK, but I'd hardly put him in the upper income bracket, but maybe I'm just conservative with my Monopoly money. I guess I just have a subjectively sour impression of him as a Cardinal outfielder. Clutch he wasn't.

by Urban Pawnee on Nov 13, 2006 2:51 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

did I miss something?
You have woody as a starter?  Is he a free agent this year?  

by Suzanne on Nov 13, 2006 3:12 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Some potential trades for Enc...
I think it would involve a "challenge trade" similar to the one that brought over Woody Williams for Lankford. One possible player might be Joel Pineiro, he was once a very promising young pitcher... dunno what's happened exactly but he's a year from FA. Armando Benitez, Paul Byrd, and Kyle Farnsworth might be others...

Also, I have a hard time seeing how the payroll goes up much given the importance mgmt. has placed on saving $2mm in the Edmonds deal. To take on an extra year just to save two mil... sounds like an owner that's not inclined to spend.

by guayzimi on Nov 13, 2006 3:24 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Doesnt Farnsworth
have an insane contract? but if youre talking about Mariners why not Soriano...hes alot better than pinero, but i think he was hurt twoards the end last yr, so this may help...probably will never happen but hes solid relief guy.
Kenny is a "dirt" bag?

by punchinjudy on Nov 13, 2006 3:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Soriano
got hit in the head in August (?) in one of the most gruesome things I've ever seen in baseball.  if he manages to take the mound again, I wouldn't be surprised if he became a headcase.

by madding on Nov 13, 2006 7:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

RE: Joel Pineiro...
He screwed up his elbow in '04, missed the rest of the season, and never fully recovered.  He's been pretty up and down and was pulled from the rotation this season (after having won AL Player of the Week honors at the end of April).

He is very much a case of buyer beware.

-J

by cinemarxist on Nov 13, 2006 8:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

J.D Drew....
I'm guessing that Boras already had some discussions with the Red Sox or Cubs about Drew and knew they would be more than willing to give him a multi-year contract over the 11 Million he was to receive in LA., and that is why he optioned out.  I think you can pencil him in as the Center Fielder for the Red Sox ...at least that would be my guess.  And I'm guessing the Cubs will re-sign Pierre also.

by Timbo02 on Nov 13, 2006 3:35 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

i'll bet you're right...
... on both counts. i think Drew might be a good player in Boston, if he can take the pressure.

by kindred on Nov 13, 2006 3:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

CoCo?
Wouldn't that make Coco Crisp that much more available?

by Fitz on Nov 13, 2006 3:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I wonder the same thing about Coco
But with Trot Nixon likely not being re-signed by Boston, and Wily Mo Pena not yet seen as the full-time answer in right, they might get Drew to play right and give Coco another year to prove himself?

by jfs on Nov 13, 2006 6:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Drew? Pressure?
HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

The Boston media will eat him alive before the end of the first homestand.

When they play the Yankees, it'll be a contest to see if he gets booed more than Damon.

by Quietude on Nov 13, 2006 5:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

My Idea
Something that hasn't been discussed much this offseason (like it had last offseason and during the year some) is Ryan Church.

I'm still on the Ryan Church bandwagon, and I'd try to send JuanEnc, Thompson, and one of our three lefties (they'd probably want Johnson) for Church, who had fallen out of favor in Washington.

The only problem I see is that maybe it was Robinson that disliked Church, and with the change in management he will get the shot he deserves.

by TICY on Nov 13, 2006 3:36 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I don't remember Church's stats but
if you're giving up a starting outfielder and 2 relievers for him he'd better be good.

by sdrone on Nov 13, 2006 3:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

really?
you'd give up that much for Church? i mean, the guy's never had an extended shot, but when he was given chances he couldn't stick. so you want to give away Enc, Thompson, and Johnson?

seems like too much. true, the Nats would be doing us a favor by taking Enc's salary, but i'm not sure it's that much of a favor: it may be true that Enc is better than Church.

Church seems kind of like the Nats version of Gall: good, but might never get a legimitate shot. i'll bet he could be had for less. not sure if Jock should go for it; i'm just not that familiar with Church.

by kindred on Nov 13, 2006 3:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

In retrospect
Ya thats probably overkill.

Enc + either loogy or Thompson/kinny/random bullpen arm.

Getting rid of Enc is more of a salary dump, I'm pretty sure Church could put up #'s as good / better than Enc, and be more happy/appreciated for doing it.

in 2005 he had 268 at bats, .287 avg, .353 obp, .526 slg, 9hr and 41 rbi.

and hit 10 HR in less than 200 at bats in 2006.

by TICY on Nov 13, 2006 3:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hah, man, now Kinney!
Surely he's in our bullpen in 07.

by sdrone on Nov 13, 2006 4:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Like i said earlier
I'm on the Ryan Church bandwagon (i dont think its very crowded) if we can dump Enc and get him for just a bullpen arm, I'll take it.

I'll also say im 100% against trading Duncan. So more people can disagree with me.

by TICY on Nov 13, 2006 4:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Negative...
...I have heard that Church (ironically) is Hyper-religious. To the point that he screws up the club house... like the religious players say ok enough with the God stuff. Not being in the clubhouse I can't say but it might be why he doesn't get a chance. Do we want that?

by Harknights on Nov 13, 2006 4:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah...
didn't he spark a small controversy with some comments he made in the clubhouse last year?

by Quietude on Nov 13, 2006 5:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know
Pujols, Molina, and Looper are all committed Christians.  Suppan and Eckstein both helped lobby against Amendment 2 in Missouri (Stem cell stuff), so I assume that they are at least somewhat religious (or at least had moral reservations with the bill.)  So off the top of my head, there are 5 potentially religious players out of the 25 that just won the WS.

I'm of the opinion that team chemistry is created by winning, as opposed to it being the thing that creates the winning.  If Church can play and helps the team succeed, he can handle snakes and speak in tounges in the clubhouse and likely not cause problems.

by Robb on Nov 13, 2006 5:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i'm with you on church
have liked him lots since last off-season. i e-mailed the Nats blogger on SB Nation to see what he thought it would require to get church; he wrote back and said "a couple of B-list pitching prospects."

by lboros on Nov 13, 2006 4:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

the Nats have really
yanked him around, starting the likes of Marlon Byrd and Nook Logan in front of him. so i'll get on the bandwagon with ya

by erik on Nov 13, 2006 6:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Matsuzaka!!
ESPN has Matsuzaka to the Red Sox for...$42MM.

sheesh.

o8o88o888o

by ilillillli on Nov 13, 2006 4:10 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

matsuzakaaaaaa
that's just for the right to bid on him...if they don't sign him they get the money back

by Fitz on Nov 13, 2006 4:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I understand all of that.
Sorry if it was unclear from the post.  Lets for a second assume that Boston Negotiates a 5 year deal with him... a fair estimate from what I have heard thrown around.

In a 5-year contract, the Red Sox have already committed over $8M anually to a pitcher that, while highly though of, has never pitched a game anywhere in the American profesional system.

I stand by my previous statement--SHEESH.

o8o88o888o

by ilillillli on Nov 13, 2006 4:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm with you man..
I'm sure this guy is a quality pitcher and has the potential to do very well in MLB...but after the way the All-Stars just put a whipping on the Japanese pitchers?....I'd be hard pressed to see the reasoning in investing somewhere around 100 million in a guy who has never proven anything on this level of play.  

by Timbo02 on Nov 13, 2006 5:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh please, please, Red Sox,
drop $100 mill on this guy and hamstring yourselves for a long time.  I would really enjoy that, even if they do get a couple of good years out of him.

Sometimes I think I'm starting to dislike the Red Sox more than the Yankees.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 13, 2006 5:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

As I tell my " Chowd" friends?...
The Red Sox ARE the Yankees....they hate that! LOL...

by Timbo02 on Nov 13, 2006 6:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Boras
He doesn't even want Matsuzaka to have more than a 3-4 year deal so he can be a free agent when he's on the better side of 30.  So 42 mil over 3/4 years + probably 10-12 mil a year minimum.  Good luck with that...for a guy that hasn't proved he can make the big league adjustments.
Pujols > God

by joker24 on Nov 13, 2006 6:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hey everyone
Haven't posted since the World Series.  What are the chances of us picking up Woody, Meche, and/or Wolf?  I've always been a Randy Wolf fan.  Also would love to see Tony Graff at 2B.  Have we basically given up on re-signing Belly?
In Albert we trust.

by Mr Redbird on Nov 13, 2006 5:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I scrolled through most of the comments and...
didn't see this brought up:

I keep seeing Narveson in Triple-A for 2007 projections but he is out of options and I would find it EXTREMELY doubtful that he would be able to clear waivers.  
It seems like he could be traded or maybe someone else in the pen could be traded.  I doubt we'll keep 3 lefties in the pen too.  One of them seems likely to be traded as well.

by fpslackers on Nov 13, 2006 5:37 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

good point...
... love to see a Rincon trade. i doubt they could get much out of Narvie, and the org is clearly not very high on him or he would've gotten a good look by now. not sure what his place is.

by kindred on Nov 13, 2006 6:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Rookie's of the Year announce
Duncan gets no votes. Hanley Ramirez and Verlander win

by jojo5492 on Nov 13, 2006 6:11 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I'm somewhat shocked...
that Ryan Zimmerman didn't get it in the NL....he only lost out by 4 votes I just read...that guy is going to have a hell of a career I think.

by Timbo02 on Nov 13, 2006 6:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He'll be the best 3b in the league...
in about 5 years. I think he'll be better than Wright or Cabrera (not counting Rolen since he is much older than the 3 of them)
Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Nov 13, 2006 7:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He might be the best
in 2-3 years.  I watched him closely all season and he is the real deal.  And he just has that "look" of a ballplayer too.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 13, 2006 8:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

someone mentioned earlier...
how about Coco Crisp? His price may be alot cheaper if and when the Red Sox sign Drew. i'd take back Coco to play a corner spot and lock down a solid outfield spot for a few years to come. Maybe Juan, Thompson, and Narveson. Something like that. I dunno. And I'm really still not a fan of the Edmonds 2 year deal.

by Cylix3341 on Nov 13, 2006 6:23 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Posted this in reply to a Coco thought above...
But with Trot Nixon likely not being re-signed by Boston, and Wily Mo Pena not yet seen as the full-time answer in right, they might get Drew to play right and give Coco another year to prove himself?

by jfs on Nov 13, 2006 6:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

2007 Schedule
the Cards open the season on Sunday Night Baseball on ESPN2 at home against the Mets (Carp/Pedro?). then they've got a day off before finishing the series on Tues., Wed. 20 of the first 34 games are at home, as are 22 of the final 37 games of the season.

Cards play Anaheim (home), Detroit (away), and Oakland (away) in interleague.

last six games are on the road, but against Pitt and Brewers.

schedule at the team site.

by kindred on Nov 13, 2006 7:31 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

i thought
pedro was seriously considering retirement...itll prob be carp/glavine

by MarcGldstn on Nov 13, 2006 8:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

How did we get stuck going to Detroit
2 years in a row?  What is this, the Bill Bellichek/NFL brand of scheduling?
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 13, 2006 9:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Pujols money
Isn't 3 mil deferred this year for Pujols? I think only 12 mil would count against the books (like the 8 mil for Edmonds).

by October04 on Nov 13, 2006 7:39 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Check out
Springfield's new hats.
-Notice the socks on the cardinal bird

I want one but i think they are only being sold at their team store.  :(

by El Hombre on Nov 13, 2006 9:25 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Looks great...
...I'll buy one.
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 13, 2006 10:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

springfields new hat
the socks are awesome, ive been wondering since the cardinals havent tinked with the jerseys since 1999 (when they put the number back on the front of the uniform after taking it off shortly) if they will create an alternate uniform either in red or black
"back.. at the track...at the wall..homerun." -joe buck

by omshagome on Nov 13, 2006 10:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I certainly hope not.
You don't see the Yankees or Dodgers monkeying around with third uniforms.

Who are we, the Marlins?

by Quietude on Nov 13, 2006 11:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I do hope we jeep the recent
trend of sleeve patches going. I like that they can chronicle the time.

2007 they could have a defending champs patch or a '1967 40th anniversary' thing going on.

Have to wait and see.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 14, 2006 12:18 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

jeep=keep*
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 14, 2006 12:39 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

jerseys
the dodgers do have that 3rd jersey in blue BTW, and since when did an alternate jersey become a travesty?  we wear an alternate hat on Sundays at home..why not a jersey, afraid of change?
"back.. at the track...at the wall..homerun." -joe buck

by omshagome on Dec 2, 2006 2:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Mats from Japan
"$50 Million +"

According to MLB.com and XM Radio.  The Red Sox paid, just for the right to negotiate with this player, more than the entire 2006 payrolls of the:

Kansas City Royals $47,294,000
Pittsburgh Pirates $46,717,750
Colorado Rockies $41,233,000
Tampa Bay Devil Rays $35,417,967
Florida Marlins $14,998,500

If Mats makes a conservative $13 million/year starting this season, he will have cost the Red Sox for the 2007 season $63 million USD.  

That would put him inline with costing as much as these teams ENTIRE 2006 payrolls:
Minnesota Twins $63,396,006
Washington Nationals $63,143,000
Oakland Athletics $62,243,079
Cincinnati Reds $60,909,519
Arizona Diamondbacks $59,684,226
Milwaukee Brewers $57,568,333
Cleveland Indians $56,031,500
Kansas City Royals $47,294,000
Pittsburgh Pirates $46,717,750
Colorado Rockies $41,233,000
Tampa Bay Devil Rays $35,417,967
Florida Marlins $14,998,500

Should be interesting to see 15 years from now how many books come out about how the Boston Red Sox worked so hard to beat the Yankees that they became the 2000s Yankees.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 14, 2006 12:37 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Red Sox win the bidding for Matsuzaka
According to ESPN, the Red Socks bid $42M for the right to negociate with Matsuzaka

There is speculation the bid is just to block the Yankees from geting Matsuzaka, but sources in Boston are saying the Red Sox really want the guy, both for his pitching and to bring recognition of the Red Sox to Japan.

Hmm, anyone know how to say "curse of Matsuzaka" in Japanese?

by Zubin on Nov 14, 2006 12:52 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Is There
Anyway that he can't be a bust.  

by Hammondsbird on Nov 14, 2006 2:29 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

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