weekend discussion thread: fantasy baseball
here's one of the main responses to those who (like me) have been questioning the cardinals' off-season moves: let's see you do better. ie, let's see you assemble a better roster than the cardinals' current one, for the same money. here's a representative example of this line of rhetoric, from cardinal stat consultant mitchel lichtman (mgl) at baseball think factory (1st comment in the thread):
disclaimer: i'm not arguing that the two rosters i'm about to present are objectively better than the one walt & co assembled. they are better in my opinion, but that's as far as it goes; you may think my ideas suck, and if you do i'm not going to haul out a bunch of numbers and show you where you're wrong. nor am i out to prove that i'm smarter than (or as smart as) jocketty. i'm not even trying to prove that the cardinals' decisions were bad ones.
i'm just trying to illustrate that they could have made other choices. the "let's see you do better" line implies that the market forced walter's hand, and that he had no other choice but to make the moves he did -- and i don't buy that. he had a range of options, and took the ones he deemed best; he has a great track record, and i hope this year's moves will work out as well as past ones have. but this course of action was far from the only one; there were lots of other ways walt could've gone.
i'm gonna lay out two of 'em. the first one assumes that the cardinal owners open their wallets and guarantee five years to aj burnett. the second assumes that aj signs with toronto, and it is built only with players who were still available after burnett's signing. brian giles doesn't figure into either scenario, because he signed while aj was still on the market and hence couldn't have been pursued after the fact. the cards, i think rightly, chose not to commit dollars to giles (or anybody else) until after the aj thing got resolved. you wonder how it might have played out if toronto had landed giles, to whom they reportedly offered 5 / $55m; those dollars, spurned by giles, ultimately lured burnett north of the border . . . . .
enough prelims. click "read more" to get to the rosters.
here's the first of my two parallel-universe 2006 cardinal rosters:
BURNETT FORTIFIED
| STARTING 8 | BENCH | ROTATION | PEN |
|---|---|---|---|
| molina c $400K |
rodriguez of $330K |
carpenter rhp $5m |
is'hausen rhp $8.5m |
| pujols 1b $14m |
cruz if $800K |
mulder lhp $7.5m |
looper rhp $3.5m |
| harris 2b $1m |
taguchi of $1m |
burnett rhp $9m |
fe rodriguez rhp $1.5m |
| rolen 3b $11m |
miles ut $320K |
suppan rhp $4m |
flores lhp $400K |
| eckstein ss $3.5m |
bennett c $650k |
an reyes rhp $320K |
thompson rhp $350k |
| bigbie lf $900K |
duncan 1b Memphis |
wainwright rhp Memphis |
tyler johnson lhp $320K |
| edmonds cf $12m |
hernandez c Memphis |
tankersley rhp Memphis |
mateo rhp $320K |
| wilkerson rf $4m |
luna if Memphis |
reyes rhp fix me |
|
| TOTAL $47.2m |
TOTAL $2.9m |
TOTAL $26m |
TOTAL $14.8m |
| OVERALL | PAYROLL: | $90.9m |
this was more or less plan A, as stated publicly many times by the front office: beef up the starting rotation (burnett), get younger in the outfield (wilkerson and bigbie) by trading malcontent pitchers (marquis and king), and fill out the roster via the free agent market. what advantages does this roster possess?
- top-of-rotation muscle to match any clemensoswaltpettitte-type trio in october
- excellent on-base ability throughout the lineup, especially at the top of the order (w wilkerson hitting 2d)
- adds youth and economy with three new 20something regulars (wilkerson harris and bigbie), joining 20x holdovers pujols and molina
- plus defenders at ev'y position
but there are times when urgency trumps cautious care, and i think the cards have reached such a pass. as good as they have been the last two summers, they have fallen one or two key pieces short in each of the last two octobers. at least one division rival (the brewers) is getting better quickly, and the rest of league won't stay down forever. now is the time to try to grab a series title while it's still there for the grabbing.
you'll notice by the way that many of walt's less popular acquisitions -- bigbie, looper, cruz, miles -- are preserved here. when you slot those guys in alongside one or two high-impact additions, they make a lot more sense, no? as mgl notes, the trading season is far from over; if walt can find a #2 pitcher out there somewhere, he may yet end up with a roster that looks similar to this one.
********************************
ok, on to the next scenario: having failed to land aj, what other course could walt have taken? no other #2-type starters were available on the f.a. market, and the trade market wasn't great (as they found when they tried to land vazquez). so . . . . .
they could've traded marquis for an outfielder anyway, then compensated for the weakened rotation by shifting the burnett budget to the bullpen and adding power arms there instead.
such a model has been used successfully before, most recently by the angels, who won a champ'ship in 2002 with an unremarkable rotation but a powerful offense and a suffocating bullpen that included donnelly weber k-rod and percival. there were plenty of bullpen guys available even after the burnett signing, and the cards negotiated with many of 'em before backing away.
the cards also missed a major opportunity in mark loretta, who got traded to boston for a backup catcher. loretta could've provided two important services -- superior middle-infield defense and superior top-of-order on-base ability -- and done it very affordably ($3m a year). losing out on a risky, pricey aj burnett is disappointing but understandable; losing out on an affordable sure thing like loretta is something else. when the cards missed on loretta but traded the next day for aaron miles, that's when the alarms went off around cardinal nation. . . . . ok, to the matrix (and suddenly i feel like laurence fishburne):
AJ-FREE DIET
| STARTING 8 | BENCH | ROTATION | PEN |
|---|---|---|---|
| molina c $400K |
rodriguez of $330K |
carpenter rhp $5m |
is'hausen rhp $8.5m |
| pujols 1b $14m |
cruz if $800K |
mulder lhp $7.5m |
to jones rhp $6m |
| loretta 2b $3m |
taguchi of $1m |
ponson rhp $2.5m |
fe rodriguez rhp $1.5m |
| rolen 3b $11m |
miles if $350K |
suppan rhp $4m |
dotel rhp $3m |
| eckstein ss $3.5m |
bennett c $650k |
an reyes rhp $320K |
thompson rhp $350k |
| bigbie lf $900K |
duncan 1b Memphis |
wainwright rhp Memphis |
flores lhp $400K |
| edmonds cf $12m |
hernandez c Memphis |
tankersly rhp Memphis |
ty johnson lhp $320K |
| wilkerson rf $4m |
luna of Memphis |
reyes rhp fix me |
|
| TOTAL $48.6m |
TOTAL $2.5m |
TOTAL $19.3m |
TOTAL $20m |
| OVERALL | PAYROLL: | $90.4m |
things to like about this team:
- outstanding on-base ability in slots 1 thru 6
- as above, youth and economy -- wilkerson, bigbie make team younger, cheaper
- three experienced closers (izzy jones dotel) in bullpen
- excellent defense
assuming you make the playoffs, the rump-rotation ceases to matter; your top three guys throw most of the innings, and the beefed-up bullpen makes every game a 6-inning affair. but this would be risky -- that word again -- rather than balanced.
that's all i got; look forward to hearing all your thoughts. have a safe and happy new year, ev'ybody.
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Damn...
yeah, roster A
i have to amend roster B, because i forget something fairly important --- namely, who we are trading to san diego in exchange for loretta. i mean, all boston sent was a backup catcher (doug mirabelli), but he does have a little value . . . . .
so let's say we sent them brad thompson. the pads lost almost their entire bullpen, only hoffman and linebrink are back. thompson's cheap and had a great debut, and he's about equal to mirabelli in win shares (5 each) and win shares above bench (bt 3, dm 2). in terms of VORP, no contest that thompson's more valuable --- 11.6 bt, 4.8 dm.
for that matter, both luna and john rodriguez had higher VORP than mirabelli and equal #s of win shares / w.s.a.b. . . . . maybe s.d. would prefer one of them. but i'd have to think they would take brad, who is still very young and will be an inexpensive 'pen option for several years.
that opens up a slot in the 'pen, which could be filled by mateo (the rule V guy) or riedling or tankersley and some guy who comes down out of the stands in jupiter . . . . .
just for fun roster #1
1b-pujols
2b-Luis castillo
3b-rolen
ss-eckstien
of-edmonds
of-giles
of-carl crawford
bench
devi cruz
bennett
bigbie
taguchi
gall
willie harris
duncan
hernandez
luna
rotation
carpenter
mulder
suppan
reyes
ponson
bullpen
izzy
danny baez
rincon
flores
thompson
cali
lincoln
tankersly
mateo
Traded wainwright and miles for castillo.
Traded marquis for crawford and baez.
Still room for a pitcher at the trade deadline I think. used two different payrolls to make this.
by herr28 on Dec 30, 2005 8:06 PM EST reply actions
your right
by herr28 on Dec 30, 2005 10:09 PM EST up reply actions
Edmonds
The dude has beeen pretty amazing for a centerfeilder over the past 6 years or so. Even if he declines as expected, he is still quite a bit above average for another 3 years.
I'm with you
by koopster on Dec 31, 2005 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
he looked pretty beat-up to me
Scenario #2
I like scenario #2- the one sans Mr 49-50.
I think its much more realistic and much less of a gamble. The only thing is, do we know we that could have gotten Wilkerson for Marquis?
Love the post, love the teams,
Is there a comparable trade that was actually made that leads you to believe Marquis would have been enough to land Wilkerson?
Everyone has broken down Marquis' value fifteen different ways and arrived at what he's "worth" but I think a huge factor that would/did/does drive his trade value down is the fact that he is, if I have my facts straight, going to be an unrestricted FA after 2006 looking for his first big payday. Any team that gets him is assured of only one year, thus making him less attractive.
I love your projected teams but I can't buy the assumption that Marquis alone could have landed Wilkerson or one of his ilk.
Nice post, by the way.
by flynn on Dec 31, 2005 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
thanks flynn
- first off, in answer to your legitimate point about marquis being a one-year rental: the guy washington did trade wilkerson for --- soriano --- is also in his free-agent year, just like marquis, and will make about twice as much $$$ this year. that didn't deter them in soriano's case, so i don't see why it would have deterred them in marquis' case
- washington was/is in the market for a starting pitcher, as they lost two (loiaiza and armas) to free agency
- the nats contacted numerous f.a. pitchers but were badly outbid in all cases; marquis is a very affordable alternative for them
- the nats discounted wilkerson's value because a) they consider ryan church ready to replace him, and b) wilkerson had an off year and is due for an arbitration-induced raise
- could just be a coincidence, but the nats didn't trade wilkerson until after the cards' search for a starting pitcher had failed. i think they were interested in marquis and held on to wilkerson as long as it looked like the cards might be in a position to trade for him. when it became clear the cards weren't going to be moving marquis any time soon, the nats dealt wilkerson elsewhere
This is a lot like the
Trades:
Marquis(+prospect if needed) for Reed
Package for Eaton
Lineup Bench
Eckstein SS (R)
Reed RF (L)
Pujols 1B (R)
Edmonds CF (L) Taguchi (R)
Rolen 3B (R) Cruz (S)
Bigbie LF (L) Rodriguez (L)
Spivey 2B (R) Luna (R)
Molina C (R) Bennett (R)
Starters Bullpen
Carpenter (R) Izzy CL (R)
Mulder (L) Looper (R)
Suppan (R) Thompson (R)
Eaton (R) Flores (L)
Reyes (R) Mateo (R)
Ponson (R) F.Rodriguez (R)
Reed would be used in RF now, then sliding into CF once JEd decides to retire. Eaton would be the young power pitcher we need (or a older similar like contreras would work). Ponson would most likely be Eldred. If Mateo don't work out, find a different warm body, or still try to get Dotel. Good balance to the lineup and bench. Solid production from all aspects.
The team gets younger, yes there are untested players in LF & RF but I have faith. The total payroll would be in the mid $80MM range, giving the team midseason room or next season room.
by Just Rope Ball on Dec 30, 2005 10:06 PM EST reply actions
Oops.
by Just Rope Ball on Dec 30, 2005 10:16 PM EST up reply actions
miggy t
by cards4ever on Dec 30, 2005 11:38 PM EST reply actions
neither
Are Brad Wilkerson or AJ Burnett the differences between the '04 and '05 teams and a championship? no way. I think Cards fans fixated on Burnett because of what Oswalt did to us in '05, but he proved to be mortal in the World Series.
My feeling is that the Cards are still favorites to win the division, and if they are only capable of winning 90 games and have to clinch it in the final week of the season, excellent. Because this team has proven that they can't summer in the month of September without simmering in the month of October.
Last note: in '04, the Cards got swept and Tony LaRussa ate crow and got e-lynched. Why is Walt now the fall guy and why does Tony get the pass? Just curious.
Happy New Year to all of you.
Da Hook
by rockin redbird on Dec 31, 2005 12:47 AM EST up reply actions
pitching.
i think this brings up an interesting question: should it really have been (and should it continue to be) jocketty's first priority to bring in a power pitcher for the number two slot in the rotation? is that really the difference between winning a championship and not winning a championship for this team?
it seems to me that recently it has become commonly excepted here at veb that the power pitcher is necessary, but why? i don't really have the time or inclination right now to do even a quick analysis, but i'd be interested to look at it.
i have the sneaking suspicion that lboros (or others) has seen some data to support his theory about the power pitcher in the playoffs, but if not i feel like we should question it, especially with the market for starting pitchers the way it is.
The argument for the power pitcher
On the other hand, I'm not 100% on buying this argument, especially considering the marginal cost difference between a 3.9 ERA strikeout pitcher and a 3.2 ERA "control" pitcher.
i haven't seen data
it also reduces the luck factor. more strikeouts = fewer balls in play = fewer bad bounces, bad calls, bloop hits, etc.
the cards have three pitchers --- supps mulder and marquis --- who avg fewer than 5 strikeouts per 9 innings. no world champ in recent years has won with a staff that heavily skewed toward put-it-in-play pitchers.
Here's
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5205306
sorry if somebody already posted this. seems like somebody did, but I scanned around and didn't see it.
Cheerleading
thanks zubin
i just don't think think they look --- on paper --- very well built for october success.
October success
I'm not sure if I entirely agree. I more inclined to believe the "crap shoot" view of the post season as descrbed in Moneyball.
No one saw the ChiSox coming last year or the Marlins two years before that. For every Roy Oswalt or Curt Schilling ther is a Woody Williams or Jeff Suppan (guys who manage to 'up' their performance come October).
i think the crap shoot view
Crap shoot
...which is why
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/
I know these are all just rumors, but...where's Walt? I know he likes to fly under the radar, but his interest, if there is any, usually doesn't go unnoticed. So it looks like there is no interest at all in trying to acquire these guys. WTF?
by rockin redbird on Dec 31, 2005 5:02 AM EST up reply actions
i gotta think
gooood
by pistolpetereiser on Dec 31, 2005 8:27 PM EST up reply actions
ZITO OR CONTRARES
AND WOULD YOU REALLY WANT ONE YEAR OF EITHER OF THOSE GUYS IN EXCHANGE FOR EVEN AT THE LOW END, WAINWRIGHT???!!!
NO THANKS, I'D RATHER HAVE AN ABOVE AVERAGE LEFT FIELDER...
payroll
by johnstjc @ Viva El Birdos on Dec 31, 2005 1:58 PM EST reply actions
Does Power Pitching Matter?
http://redbirdnation.blogspot.com/2004_10_01_redbirdnation_archive.html
by flynn on Dec 31, 2005 2:13 PM EST reply actions
Power pitching quotes
Which reminds me of my favorite Brian Gunn quote: "I'm gonna say it again because I like the way it rolls off the tongue: Jeff. Suppan. Outdueled. Roger. Clemens."
Still I think conventional wisdom is that 95mph fastballs and sliders increase the margin for error. Or as Valatan said: "The argument for the power pitcher is that a good fastball/slider pitcher is the one thing that cannot be countered by anything else... ...not clever at-bats, not stupid umps, not goofy stadiums. All other baseball talent is heavily dependent on these things."
That is
by rockin redbird on Dec 31, 2005 6:32 PM EST up reply actions
I still say it is 80% the fault of the hitters
I can't identify what it is, but it really seems to me that the offense just decided to start really sucking at the most inopportune moment. Same for the series against the Giants, and for the series agaisnt the Mets. In none of these cases, other than the Mulder game 6, do I remember a pitcher really giving up the game. I just remember star hitters failing in game-critical situations.
Could it
by rockin redbird on Jan 1, 2006 9:07 AM EST up reply actions
i wouldn't say suppan outdueled him
Hitting vs. Pitching...
I don't buy it. We've had two utter hitting collapses in the playoffs the last two years. Our pitching HAS been good enough to win (mostly). Our hitting has not. The problem is, in a short series, anyone can have a slump (or injuries). If Houston meets the ChiSox in September (during their "slump") do they win? I agree that you can increase your probability by making certain moves, but you can't say that pitching is why we don't have 1 or more world series ring the past two years. You're not going to win many playoff series' with a .563 OPS or .560 OPS, you will with a 2.94 ERA like last year's series vs. Houston. (admittidly the 6.09 ERA in the '04 series doesn't help my point).
That Damn Fifth Year
by twobrdz on Jan 1, 2006 9:41 AM EST reply actions
The Matrix Has You...
- Not everyone wants to move to Missouri for the allure of those muggy August nights. (As amazing as it might sound)
- Did anyone but Boston KNOW that Loretta was available for peanuts? I'd have to think 10-15 other clubs would have JUMPED at offering a better package than that. Maybe this is just the fact of the San Diego GM being stupid. (Woody for Lankford anyone?) Plus, if San Diego really was singleminded in looking for a cheap backup catcher, we really didn't have that to offer (so they wouldn't have contacted us).
- All clubs are looking to find "the most efficient way to build their team" (unless they are in the AL East or have a baseball for a mascot). We can't automatically assume that WE are going to get every efficient (money/ production) player that comes down the pipeline. (Spivey might be our shot)
- Some GM's may be wary of trading with Walt. Most GMs don't want to look stupid. If you were a GM, would you feel better about trading with Texas or St. Louis (in the case of Wilkerson). Just a thought.
- Overpaying for players usually leads to problems down the road. Say we get Burnett AND he does well. And say that does increase our chances for a world series. What is that increase? Is mortgaging our future (say one more year in the playoffs) worth increasing our chance for one world series ring 2%? How about 3%? Assuming these arbitrary figures are correct, is that enough?
Holy Crap!
http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=43814
Assist to...
Robert Fick
What about...
by flynn on Jan 3, 2006 9:58 AM EST up reply actions




















