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Around SBN: Nevin Shapiro Vows To Bring Down Miami

weekend discussion thread: fantasy baseball

here's one of the main responses to those who (like me) have been questioning the cardinals' off-season moves: let's see you do better. ie, let's see you assemble a better roster than the cardinals' current one, for the same money. here's a representative example of this line of rhetoric, from cardinal stat consultant mitchel lichtman (mgl) at baseball think factory (1st comment in the thread):

If someone is going to criticize the Cards moves so far (and remember that the trading and signing season is far from over), all I ask is that they take the same amount of money already spent (it is not fair to say that a team should spend more money than they have) and tell us exactly who they should have signed or traded and why (value received in projected marginal wins).
fair enough; i'm gonna take the bait. as most of you know, via the roster matrix i've been conducting make-believe transactions all off-season, trying out diff'nt combinations of players and diff'nt ways of allocating the budget. i put together about 15 diff'nt rosters in all. most of the assumptions i made about the market in those exercises have proven to be pretty accurate, but some were off the mark; we now have much more information about how much certain players cost in free-agent dollars or in talent via trade. so i'll revisit, discard faulty premises, and take another couple of cracks at it. then you guys can question my "acquisitions" the way i've been questioning some of sir walter's.

disclaimer: i'm not arguing that the two rosters i'm about to present are objectively better than the one walt & co assembled. they are better in my opinion, but that's as far as it goes; you may think my ideas suck, and if you do i'm not going to haul out a bunch of numbers and show you where you're wrong. nor am i out to prove that i'm smarter than (or as smart as) jocketty. i'm not even trying to prove that the cardinals' decisions were bad ones.

i'm just trying to illustrate that they could have made other choices. the "let's see you do better" line implies that the market forced walter's hand, and that he had no other choice but to make the moves he did -- and i don't buy that. he had a range of options, and took the ones he deemed best; he has a great track record, and i hope this year's moves will work out as well as past ones have. but this course of action was far from the only one; there were lots of other ways walt could've gone.

i'm gonna lay out two of 'em. the first one assumes that the cardinal owners open their wallets and guarantee five years to aj burnett. the second assumes that aj signs with toronto, and it is built only with players who were still available after burnett's signing. brian giles doesn't figure into either scenario, because he signed while aj was still on the market and hence couldn't have been pursued after the fact. the cards, i think rightly, chose not to commit dollars to giles (or anybody else) until after the aj thing got resolved. you wonder how it might have played out if toronto had landed giles, to whom they reportedly offered 5 / $55m; those dollars, spurned by giles, ultimately lured burnett north of the border . . . . .

enough prelims. click "read more" to get to the rosters.

Star-divide

here's the first of my two parallel-universe 2006 cardinal rosters:

BURNETT FORTIFIED

STARTING 8 BENCH ROTATION PEN
molina c
$400K
rodriguez of
$330K
carpenter rhp
$5m
is'hausen rhp
$8.5m
pujols 1b
$14m
cruz if
$800K
mulder lhp
$7.5m
looper rhp
$3.5m
harris 2b
$1m
taguchi of
$1m
burnett rhp
$9m
fe rodriguez rhp
$1.5m
rolen 3b
$11m
miles ut
$320K
suppan rhp
$4m
flores lhp
$400K
eckstein ss
$3.5m
bennett c
$650k
an reyes rhp
$320K
thompson rhp
$350k
bigbie lf
$900K
duncan 1b
Memphis
wainwright rhp
Memphis
tyler johnson lhp
$320K
edmonds cf
$12m
hernandez c
Memphis
tankersley rhp
Memphis
mateo rhp
$320K
wilkerson rf
$4m
luna if
Memphis
reyes rhp
fix me
TOTAL
$47.2m
TOTAL
$2.9m
TOTAL
$26m
TOTAL
$14.8m
OVERALL PAYROLL: $90.9m

this was more or less plan A, as stated publicly many times by the front office: beef up the starting rotation (burnett), get younger in the outfield (wilkerson and bigbie) by trading malcontent pitchers (marquis and king), and fill out the roster via the free agent market. what advantages does this roster possess?

  1. top-of-rotation muscle to match any clemensoswaltpettitte-type trio in october
  2. excellent on-base ability throughout the lineup, especially at the top of the order (w wilkerson hitting 2d)
  3. adds youth and economy with three new 20something regulars (wilkerson harris and bigbie), joining 20x holdovers pujols and molina
  4. plus defenders at ev'y position
this is the type of roster jocketty hoped to construct this off-season; when he and tony said starting pitching was their #1 priority, they meant aj burnett and not sidney ponson. many cardinal fans were relieved that the cardinals didn't throw $50 million at aj, but i wish they'd given burnett the five guaranteed years he demanded and closed that deal. back on november 23 i explained why i would bet the farm on burnett (and you'll find an earlier roster scenario outlined there, by the way):
edmonds is in the final year of his deal [the team does hold an option] and perhaps the final year of his effectiveness. mulder and suppan are both in their walk years. rolen's body is older than his chronological age. the window is closing; the future is now. adding burnett to carpenter and reyes gives st louis three power-pitching starters for postseason 2006; add one decent setup man, a league-avg corner outfielder, and a gloveman at 2d and go for it. like i say all the time, sometimes you have to roll `em. . . . . yes burnett's risky, but caution rarely wins championships.
caution has served the stl front office very well since 2000. the cardinals have tended to proceed incrementally and above all to seek balance in their payroll / talent allocations. this approach has led st louis to arguably the highest plateau in the franchise's history, culminating in two seasons' worth (at least) of consistently superlative play. i'm not arguing with that approach; i'm appreciatively awed by it.

but there are times when urgency trumps cautious care, and i think the cards have reached such a pass. as good as they have been the last two summers, they have fallen one or two key pieces short in each of the last two octobers. at least one division rival (the brewers) is getting better quickly, and the rest of league won't stay down forever. now is the time to try to grab a series title while it's still there for the grabbing.

you'll notice by the way that many of walt's less popular acquisitions -- bigbie, looper, cruz, miles -- are preserved here. when you slot those guys in alongside one or two high-impact additions, they make a lot more sense, no? as mgl notes, the trading season is far from over; if walt can find a #2 pitcher out there somewhere, he may yet end up with a roster that looks similar to this one.

********************************

ok, on to the next scenario: having failed to land aj, what other course could walt have taken? no other #2-type starters were available on the f.a. market, and the trade market wasn't great (as they found when they tried to land vazquez). so . . . . .

they could've traded marquis for an outfielder anyway, then compensated for the weakened rotation by shifting the burnett budget to the bullpen and adding power arms there instead.

such a model has been used successfully before, most recently by the angels, who won a champ'ship in 2002 with an unremarkable rotation but a powerful offense and a suffocating bullpen that included donnelly weber k-rod and percival. there were plenty of bullpen guys available even after the burnett signing, and the cards negotiated with many of 'em before backing away.

the cards also missed a major opportunity in mark loretta, who got traded to boston for a backup catcher. loretta could've provided two important services -- superior middle-infield defense and superior top-of-order on-base ability -- and done it very affordably ($3m a year). losing out on a risky, pricey aj burnett is disappointing but understandable; losing out on an affordable sure thing like loretta is something else. when the cards missed on loretta but traded the next day for aaron miles, that's when the alarms went off around cardinal nation. . . . . ok, to the matrix (and suddenly i feel like laurence fishburne):

AJ-FREE DIET

STARTING 8 BENCH ROTATION PEN
molina c
$400K
rodriguez of
$330K
carpenter rhp
$5m
is'hausen rhp
$8.5m
pujols 1b
$14m
cruz if
$800K
mulder lhp
$7.5m
to jones rhp
$6m
loretta 2b
$3m
taguchi of
$1m
ponson rhp
$2.5m
fe rodriguez rhp
$1.5m
rolen 3b
$11m
miles if
$350K
suppan rhp
$4m
dotel rhp
$3m
eckstein ss
$3.5m
bennett c
$650k
an reyes rhp
$320K
thompson rhp
$350k
bigbie lf
$900K
duncan 1b
Memphis
wainwright rhp
Memphis
flores lhp
$400K
edmonds cf
$12m
hernandez c
Memphis
tankersly rhp
Memphis
ty johnson lhp
$320K
wilkerson rf
$4m
luna of
Memphis
reyes rhp
fix me
TOTAL
$48.6m
TOTAL
$2.5m
TOTAL
$19.3m
TOTAL
$20m
OVERALL PAYROLL: $90.4m

things to like about this team:

  1. outstanding on-base ability in slots 1 thru 6
  2. as above, youth and economy -- wilkerson, bigbie make team younger, cheaper
  3. three experienced closers (izzy jones dotel) in bullpen
  4. excellent defense
here we've put nearly 80 percent of the budget into the starting 8 and the 'pen, making both units champ'ship-caliber. as long as anthony reyes has a strong rookie season, the rotation looks plenty strong enough, too --- but what if either he or ponson falters? if one of them washes out, you have to give wainwright or tankersley 15 starts, and if both reyes and ponson wash out that could spell trouble . . . . but manageable trouble, i believe. look at it this way: marquis and morris were about 2 wins apiece above replacement level last year, and they combined for 60 starts; if you give half of those starts to guys who merely pitch at replacement level, you're only losing 2 games in the standings. the cards have won the division by 10+ games in three of the last four seasons -- including one (2002) in which they gave a combined 34 starts to replacement-level pitchers jason simontaachi and travis smith. given the strength of this roster's bullpen, they could get away with at least one five-inning starter; and i think the offense would be strong enough to lift shaky rump-of-rotation pitchers to within shouting distance of .500.

assuming you make the playoffs, the rump-rotation ceases to matter; your top three guys throw most of the innings, and the beefed-up bullpen makes every game a 6-inning affair. but this would be risky -- that word again -- rather than balanced.

that's all i got; look forward to hearing all your thoughts. have a safe and happy new year, ev'ybody.

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Damn...
these both look pretty sweet, LB. But Roster A really is a thing of beauty--as you say, it's amazing how one giant piece of the puzzle makes all those little pieces seem to fit better. I really hope we don't regret that one lousy tightwad decision. Still, gotta keep hoping Walt will find that killer #2 starter somewhere.

by rockin redbird on Dec 30, 2005 6:49 PM EST reply actions  

yeah, roster A
sigh . . . .

i have to amend roster B, because i forget something fairly important --- namely, who we are trading to san diego in exchange for loretta. i mean, all boston sent was a backup catcher (doug mirabelli), but he does have a little value . . . . .

so let's say we sent them brad thompson. the pads lost almost their entire bullpen, only hoffman and linebrink are back. thompson's cheap and had a great debut, and he's about equal to mirabelli in win shares (5 each) and win shares above bench (bt 3, dm 2). in terms of VORP, no contest that thompson's more valuable --- 11.6 bt, 4.8 dm.

for that matter, both luna and john rodriguez had higher VORP than mirabelli and equal #s of win shares / w.s.a.b. . . . . maybe s.d. would prefer one of them. but i'd have to think they would take brad, who is still very young and will be an inexpensive 'pen option for several years.

that opens up a slot in the 'pen, which could be filled by mateo (the rule V guy) or riedling or tankersley and some guy who comes down out of the stands in jupiter . . . . .

by lboros on Dec 30, 2005 7:05 PM EST reply actions  

just for fun roster #1
c-molina
1b-pujols
2b-Luis castillo
3b-rolen
ss-eckstien
of-edmonds
of-giles
of-carl crawford
bench
devi cruz
bennett
bigbie
taguchi
gall
willie harris
duncan
hernandez
luna
rotation
carpenter
mulder
suppan
reyes
ponson
bullpen
izzy
danny baez
rincon
flores
thompson
cali
lincoln
tankersly
mateo

Traded wainwright and miles for castillo.
Traded marquis for crawford and baez.
Still room for a pitcher at the trade deadline I think.  used two different payrolls to make this.

by herr28 on Dec 30, 2005 8:06 PM EST reply actions  

No way
There's no way we get Crawford for Marquis, let alone with Baez included

by Glowsticks on Dec 30, 2005 8:33 PM EST up reply actions  

your right
this was just for fun. it's just what i would have liked.

by herr28 on Dec 30, 2005 10:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Edmonds
Why do I keep reading that Edmonds is either about ready to break-down or drop off?

The dude has beeen pretty amazing for a centerfeilder over the past 6 years or so.  Even if he declines as expected, he is still quite a bit above average for another 3 years.

by Zubin on Dec 30, 2005 9:35 PM EST reply actions  

I'm with you
If he puts up similar numbers this year, there would be a more valid arguement imho. While it is true he isn't getting any younger, he was coming off a season where he produced debatable his best overall season.

by koopster on Dec 31, 2005 12:16 PM EST up reply actions  

he looked pretty beat-up to me
the last 1/3 of the season, and come playoff time his front shoulder was so sore he couldn't turn on anything. i think there's a good chance that one of these years --- don't know if 06, 07, 08 --- he's gonna drop off the cliff offensively.

by lboros on Dec 31, 2005 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Scenario #2
LB:
I like scenario #2- the one sans Mr 49-50.

I think its much more realistic and much less of a gamble.  The only thing is, do we know we that could have gotten Wilkerson for Marquis?

by Zubin on Dec 30, 2005 9:50 PM EST reply actions  

marquis for wilkerson
we don't know for sure, but it's a pretty good bet

by lboros on Dec 30, 2005 10:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Love the post, love the teams,
but what do you base that assumption on?

Is there a comparable trade that was actually made that leads you to believe Marquis would have been enough to land Wilkerson?

Everyone has broken down Marquis' value fifteen different ways and arrived at what he's "worth" but I think a huge factor that would/did/does drive his trade value down is the fact that he is, if I have my facts straight, going to be an unrestricted FA after 2006 looking for his first big payday.  Any team that gets him is assured of only one year, thus making him less attractive.  

I love your projected teams but I can't buy the assumption that Marquis alone could have landed Wilkerson or one of his ilk.  

Nice post, by the way.  

by flynn on Dec 31, 2005 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

thanks flynn
here's why i think marquis-for-wilkerson was a realistic possibility
  • first off, in answer to your legitimate point about marquis being a one-year rental: the guy washington did trade wilkerson for --- soriano --- is also in his free-agent year, just like marquis, and will make about twice as much $$$ this year.  that didn't deter them in soriano's case, so i don't see why it would have deterred them in marquis' case
  • washington was/is in the market for a starting pitcher, as they lost two (loiaiza and armas) to free agency
  • the nats contacted numerous f.a. pitchers but were badly outbid in all cases; marquis is a very affordable alternative for them
  • the nats discounted wilkerson's value because a) they consider ryan church ready to replace him, and b) wilkerson had an off year and is due for an arbitration-induced raise
  • could just be a coincidence, but the nats didn't trade wilkerson until after the cards' search for a starting pitcher had failed. i think they were interested in marquis and held on to wilkerson as long as it looked like the cards might be in a position to trade for him. when it became clear the cards weren't going to be moving marquis any time soon, the nats dealt wilkerson elsewhere
it's all circumstantial evidence, but it supports the theory that this trade could have been pursued. nobody has made a convincing case that this was an unrealistic trade idea.

by lboros on Jan 1, 2006 5:28 PM EST up reply actions  

This is a lot like the
propoal that I had on the diary that Thinktank posted a week ago, but with a few changes.  I think too many people like JEd so we can let him retire with the birds.  This is also pre-JuanCion signing, but includes Spivey.  Here are my remaining moves:

Trades:  

Marquis(+prospect if needed) for Reed
Package for Eaton

Lineup                   Bench

Eckstein SS (R)    
Reed RF (L)
Pujols 1B (R)
Edmonds CF (L)     Taguchi (R)
Rolen 3B (R)         Cruz (S)
Bigbie LF (L)          Rodriguez (L)
Spivey 2B (R)        Luna (R)
Molina C (R)          Bennett (R)

Starters                Bullpen
Carpenter (R)       Izzy CL (R)
Mulder (L)             Looper (R)
Suppan (R)           Thompson (R)
Eaton (R)              Flores (L)
Reyes (R)             Mateo (R)
Ponson (R)           F.Rodriguez (R)

Reed would be used in RF now, then sliding into CF once JEd decides to retire.  Eaton would be the young power pitcher we need (or a older similar like contreras would work).  Ponson would most likely be Eldred.  If Mateo don't work out, find a different warm body, or still try to get Dotel.  Good balance to the lineup and bench.  Solid production from all aspects.  

The team gets younger, yes there are untested players in LF & RF but I have faith.  The total payroll would be in the mid $80MM range, giving the team midseason room or next season room.    

by Just Rope Ball on Dec 30, 2005 10:06 PM EST reply actions  

Oops.
Forgot another LOOGY, keep Rincon.  Loose either F-Rod or Mateo.

by Just Rope Ball on Dec 30, 2005 10:16 PM EST up reply actions  

miggy t
apparently the astros have offered a position player (likely taveras, lane, or burke) and a pitcher from their top ten list of prospects to the O's for tejada. if they got him we would be screwed.
bring home a championship to STL

by cards4ever on Dec 30, 2005 11:38 PM EST reply actions  

neither
neither scenario adds up.  There's no doubt that the opening day corner outfielders disappoint and are replacement level at best.

Are Brad Wilkerson or AJ Burnett the differences between the '04 and '05 teams and a championship?  no way.  I think Cards fans fixated on Burnett because of what Oswalt did to us in '05, but he proved to be mortal in the World Series.

My feeling is that the Cards are still favorites to win the division, and if they are only capable of winning 90 games and have to clinch it in the final week of the season, excellent.  Because this team has proven that they can't summer in the month of September without simmering in the month of October.

Last note:  in '04, the Cards got swept and Tony LaRussa ate crow and got e-lynched.  Why is Walt now the fall guy and why does Tony get the pass?  Just curious.

Happy New Year to all of you.  

by mikeoat on Dec 30, 2005 11:47 PM EST reply actions  

Da Hook
On those days when TLR makes goofy lineups or overmanages the pitchers, he'll be on the hook again. But Walt is the guy who dangles the winter purse, thus the focus is on him right now. If he had been able to spend a bit more for pitching these last couple years, another World Championship may have been ours. The real culprits are the owners, who have a tiresome habit of getting cheap at exactly the wrong moment.    

by rockin redbird on Dec 31, 2005 12:47 AM EST up reply actions  

pitching.
> I think Cards fans fixated on Burnett because of what Oswalt did to us in '05, but he proved to be mortal in the World Series.

i think this brings up an interesting question: should it really have been (and should it continue to be) jocketty's first priority to bring in a power pitcher for the number two slot in the rotation? is that really the difference between winning a championship and not winning a championship for this team?

it seems to me that recently it has become commonly excepted here at veb that the power pitcher is necessary, but why? i don't really have the time or inclination right now to do even a quick analysis, but i'd be interested to look at it.

i have the sneaking suspicion that lboros (or others) has seen some data to support his theory about the power pitcher in the playoffs, but if not i feel like we should question it, especially with the market for starting pitchers the way it is.

by dagniel on Dec 31, 2005 1:19 AM EST up reply actions  

The argument for the power pitcher
is that a good fastball/slider pitcher is the one thing that cannot be countered by anything else--if you have a guy who is on, like Oswalt in that game 6, or RJ/Schilling in 2001, or Pedro that one time he came out in relief against the indians and threw 7 shutout innings, then noone can screw it up, not clever at-bats, not stupid umps, not goofy stadiums.  All other baseball talent is heavily dependent on these things.

On the other hand, I'm not 100% on buying this argument, especially considering the marginal cost difference between a 3.9 ERA strikeout pitcher and a 3.2 ERA "control" pitcher.

by Valatan on Dec 31, 2005 1:37 AM EST up reply actions  

i haven't seen data
valatan sums it up well --- a pitcher who can come right after hitters, who doesn't have to hit the corners, who can make guys swing and miss, has a larger margin for error, and that's key in a high-pressure playoff environment.

it also reduces the luck factor. more strikeouts = fewer balls in play = fewer bad bounces, bad calls, bloop hits, etc.

the cards have three pitchers --- supps mulder and marquis --- who avg fewer than 5 strikeouts per 9 innings. no world champ in recent years has won with a staff that heavily skewed toward put-it-in-play pitchers.

by lboros on Dec 31, 2005 4:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Here's
a bit of cheerleading we could all use:

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5205306

sorry if somebody already posted this. seems like somebody did, but I scanned around and didn't see it.

by rockin redbird on Dec 31, 2005 1:06 AM EST reply actions  

Cheerleading
I think its been said that the good news for the Cards is the mistakes they didn't make.  If you scan back a week or two, I think LB mentions the core of a 100 wins team is still in tact.  In fact, didn't he say we are a #2 starter away from dominance again?

by Zubin on Dec 31, 2005 3:21 AM EST up reply actions  

thanks zubin
for pointing that out. i'm disappointed by this offseason but not despairing ---- prob'y like most of you guys. but i've said a buncha times that even if the cards make no other changes they're a likely playoff team.

i just don't think think they look --- on paper --- very well built for october success.

by lboros on Dec 31, 2005 4:44 AM EST up reply actions  

October success
LB:
I'm not sure if I entirely agree.  I more inclined to believe the "crap shoot" view of the post season as descrbed in Moneyball.

No one saw the ChiSox coming last year or the Marlins two years before that.  For every Roy Oswalt or Curt Schilling ther is a Woody Williams or Jeff Suppan (guys who manage to 'up' their performance come October).

by Zubin on Dec 31, 2005 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

i think the crap shoot view
is a cop out. there's luck involved, yes --- but teams still can and do try to tailor their rosters to improve their chances. sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. but you still gotta try to improve your odds.

by lboros on Dec 31, 2005 6:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Crap shoot
Maybe I overstated my position.  I didn't mean it was all blind luck.  I do agree teams seem to be more reliant on a just few players in he post-season.

by Zubin on Jan 1, 2006 5:50 PM EST up reply actions  

...which is why
I'm somewhat surprised that Walt doesn't seem to be on the radar at all with the Zito talks. If AJ was so coveted, why not give this one a spin--Zito seems like a better fit for the Birds anyway. And it looks like the Stros are moving on Contreras as well:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

I know these are all just rumors, but...where's Walt? I know he likes to fly under the radar, but his interest, if there is any, usually doesn't go unnoticed. So it looks like there is no interest at all in trying to acquire these guys. WTF?

by rockin redbird on Dec 31, 2005 5:02 AM EST up reply actions  

i gotta think
walter is in there. but you know the first name out of ken williams' mouth is "reyes," and walter says sorry, but how 'bout wainwright thompson lambert etc etc . . . . if these rumors are true, the sox are getting better offers than what the cards can muster.

by lboros on Dec 31, 2005 12:39 PM EST up reply actions  

gooood
article, plus we add an all-star 3rd baseman. How happy would everyone be if rolen returns to his old self? what if we had that same increase in offensive numbers from 2nd? 06 will be another 95+ win season.
Leo Durocher called Reiser the only ballplayer he ever saw who was better than Willie Mays. from NICE GUYS FINISH LAST

by pistolpetereiser on Dec 31, 2005 8:27 PM EST up reply actions  

ZITO OR CONTRARES
NO WAY... ZITO AND CONTRARES ARE IN THEIR WALK YEAR - WE HAVE NOTHING TO OFFER OUTSIDE OF REYES AND WAINWRIGHT THAT COULD EVEN BE CONSIDERED COMPETITIVE TO THE OTHER OFFERS THE A'S AND CHISOX ARE FIELDING RIGHT NOW...

AND WOULD YOU REALLY WANT ONE YEAR OF EITHER OF THOSE GUYS IN EXCHANGE FOR EVEN AT THE LOW END, WAINWRIGHT???!!!

NO THANKS, I'D RATHER HAVE AN ABOVE AVERAGE LEFT FIELDER...

by TOLAXOR on Dec 31, 2005 1:20 PM EST reply actions  

payroll
the real prob for the cards is paying the back end of the rotation close to ten million this year once marquis goes throught arbitration

by johnstjc @ Viva El Birdos on Dec 31, 2005 1:58 PM EST reply actions  

Does Power Pitching Matter?
All this talk about needing two big guns at the top of the rotation reminded me of a terrific piece on Redbird Nation addressing the significance of an "ace" pitcher in the postseason.  Almost all "aces" seem to be power guys, with a few exceptions, so I submit the work of Brian Gunn to all of you quibbling over this topic.  (Click the link then scroll down to the October 4, 2004 post, next to the picture of Gibson.)  

http://redbirdnation.blogspot.com/2004_10_01_redbirdnation_archive.html

by flynn on Dec 31, 2005 2:13 PM EST reply actions  

Power pitching quotes
As I said, for every Randy Johnson or Roger Clemens there is a Woody Williams or Jeff Suppan.
Which reminds me of my favorite Brian Gunn quote: "I'm gonna say it again because I like the way it rolls off the tongue: Jeff. Suppan. Outdueled. Roger. Clemens."

Still I think conventional wisdom is that 95mph fastballs and sliders increase the margin for error. Or as Valatan said: "The argument for the power pitcher is that a good fastball/slider pitcher is the one thing that cannot be countered by anything else... ...not clever at-bats, not stupid umps, not goofy stadiums.  All other baseball talent is heavily dependent on these things."

by Zubin on Dec 31, 2005 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

That is
a terrific piece. I recall reading it back then, but thanx for the repost. I dunno. I'm just so sick of going into the postseason with pitching that tends to fall apart. What did lose us those last two postseasons? Sure looked like we were outpitched to me. Our hitters were completely shut down by the Red Sox and Stros hurlers. And what won the WS for the White Sox? Pitching. I probably am buying into an old myth (they do die hard), but I really believe we'd at least have put up a better fight these last two years with an extra power arm or two (one in the rotation, one in the pen). Is it worth mortgaging the future to get them? There's the real question. If I had confidence that Cards ownership will replace our declining stars with equally great players in the next few years, I'd say no. But I don't believe the financial picture or the tendency to go only after bargains will change much, so I have to agree with LB and others who believe that our Championship window may be closing. Thus, I say yes (though giving AJ that extra year hardly represented mortgaging the future). 100 win seasons are nice, to be sure. We have a lot to be proud of these last two seasons. And I am proud. But our boys do not have rings. Though it may be simplistic to blame that on pitching, I do.  

by rockin redbird on Dec 31, 2005 6:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I still say it is 80% the fault of the hitters
particularly in the BOS series.  It's one thing to say that their pitchers were on, but ours didn't have all that bad of a series.  ON the offensive side, aside from Pujols, and walker in the BOS series, the entire offense sucked.  If John Rodriguez, no matter how much potential he has, is outhitting Jim Edmonds, there is a major problem with the offense.  If scott Rolen is 0-for a series, then there is a problem with the offense.

I can't identify what it is, but it really seems to me that the offense just decided to start really sucking at the most inopportune moment.  Same for the series against the Giants, and for the series agaisnt the Mets.  In none of these cases, other than the Mulder game 6, do I remember a pitcher really giving up the game.  I just remember star hitters failing in game-critical situations.

by Valatan on Dec 31, 2005 9:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Could it
be that the hitting sucked because the other team's pitchers shut them down? When a generally good to great hitter fails, is it his batting skills failing him or is it the pitcher dominating him? I'd say sometimes it's one; sometimes it's the other. But when it happens to your whole, previously killer, lineup it's the latter. I don't buy that they just decided to suck--the decision wasn't theirs. A pitcher doesn't have to give up the game or have a bad series to still ultimately lose. If the other pitcher is better, he's better. That certainly doesn't guarantee a win, of course. But stacking the deck a little doesn't hurt either. Why not do everything possible to "create" a little good luck?        

by rockin redbird on Jan 1, 2006 9:07 AM EST up reply actions  

i wouldn't say suppan outdueled him
i'd say he got by, and was the benefit of some fantastic defense behind him (most obviously edmonds' catch in left-center) and some luck, with hard-hit balls going right to stl defenders.

by lboros on Dec 31, 2005 6:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Hitting vs. Pitching...
So if the answer to why we didn't win the world series the past two years is "dominant pitching," then why didn't Houston win last year?  How could anyone say that imperically, Chisox pitching (especially their top 3) was better than Houston's (overall) in 2005?  

I don't buy it.  We've had two utter hitting collapses in the playoffs the last two years.  Our pitching HAS been good enough to win (mostly).  Our hitting has not. The problem is, in a short series, anyone can have a slump (or injuries).  If Houston meets the ChiSox in September (during their "slump")  do they win?  I agree that you can increase your probability by making certain moves, but you can't say that pitching is why we don't have 1 or more world series ring the past two years.  You're not going to win many playoff series' with a .563 OPS or .560 OPS, you will with a 2.94 ERA like last year's series vs. Houston.  (admittidly the 6.09 ERA in the '04 series doesn't help my point).

"I see great things in baseball. It's our game - the American game. It will... Repair (our) losses, and be a blessing to us." Walt Whitman

by MRCARD on Jan 1, 2006 10:25 PM EST up reply actions  

To paraphrase
a former redheaded firstbaseman, "We're not here to talk about the past."

by cardsrul on Dec 31, 2005 10:04 PM EST reply actions  

The past
But those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.

by Zubin on Jan 1, 2006 4:40 PM EST up reply actions  

That Damn Fifth Year
Signing Burnett was the stated goal by Walt et al, and while we all would have debated it ceaselessly it would have established the "vision" management felt would carry us to winning the World Series.  A bold move fostering confidence.  That damn fifth year.  I know there was the insurance thing, but even sans a World Series title, would it have been the end of the world if we were still paying for a broken down Burnett in 2010?  What's the "vision" for 2010, if there is one?  Hopefully a Luhnow Pipeline has kicked in by then because we are going to be paying alot of money to Pujols by then, eh?        

by twobrdz on Jan 1, 2006 9:41 AM EST reply actions  

The Matrix Has You...
Great post!  Your matrix hook is one of the best I've seen in blogdom.  You can't argue that either of these scenerios wouldn't be better than what we have, but you have to acknowledge that their could be other factors involved:
  1.  Not everyone wants to move to Missouri for the allure of those muggy August nights.  (As amazing as it might sound)
  2.  Did anyone but Boston KNOW that Loretta was available for peanuts?  I'd have to think 10-15 other clubs would have JUMPED at offering a better package than that.  Maybe this is just the fact of the San Diego GM being stupid. (Woody for Lankford anyone?) Plus, if San Diego really was singleminded in looking for a cheap backup catcher, we really didn't have that to offer (so they wouldn't have contacted us).  
  3.  All clubs are looking to find "the most efficient way to build their team" (unless they are in the AL East or have a baseball for a mascot).  We can't automatically assume that WE are going to get every efficient (money/ production) player that comes down the pipeline.  (Spivey might be our shot)
  4.  Some GM's may be wary of trading with Walt.  Most GMs don't want to look stupid.  If you were a GM, would you feel better about trading with Texas or St. Louis (in the case of Wilkerson).  Just a thought.
  5. Overpaying for players usually leads to problems down the road.  Say we get Burnett AND he does well.  And say that does increase our chances for a world series.  What is that increase?  Is mortgaging our future (say one more year in the playoffs) worth increasing our chance for one world series ring 2%?  How about 3%?  Assuming these arbitrary figures are correct, is that enough?
Overall, this was a fantastic article, I'm just playing devil's advocate...
"I see great things in baseball. It's our game - the American game. It will... Repair (our) losses, and be a blessing to us." Walt Whitman

by MRCARD on Jan 1, 2006 10:54 PM EST reply actions  

Holy Crap!
Did anyone else see that Burnett can OPT OUT of his contract after 3 years in Toronto?  That deal gets worse and worse...

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=43814

"I see great things in baseball. It's our game - the American game. It will... Repair (our) losses, and be a blessing to us." Walt Whitman

by MRCARD on Jan 1, 2006 11:21 PM EST reply actions  

Assist to...
http://playahard9.blogspot.com/
"I see great things in baseball. It's our game - the American game. It will... Repair (our) losses, and be a blessing to us." Walt Whitman

by MRCARD on Jan 1, 2006 11:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Robert Fick
I wish the Cards would have signed this guy.  He signed a one year deal with the Nats for $850k.  I certainly think he is worth $200k more per year than Bennett.  Not only could he have been the backup catcher but he also could have provided a left handed bat off the bench.  That probably opens up a roster spot for another pitcher.  But however you slice it, Fick would have been a nice fit.

by acr on Jan 2, 2006 5:09 PM EST reply actions  

yeah, i am with you
it would be nice to have a backup c who can also be a useful bat off the bench

by lboros on Jan 2, 2006 6:30 PM EST up reply actions  

What about...
Fick's actions in the 2003 NLDS?  Do they endear him to Card fans or not?

by flynn on Jan 3, 2006 9:58 AM EST up reply actions  

Fick also
has experience at 1B, which would've provided a nice fill-in for AP. Right now, unless Daubach makes the team out of ST, I don't see anyone backing him up, unless TLR plans on using either Bennett or maybe Bigbie..

by cardsrul on Jan 2, 2006 11:13 PM EST reply actions  

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