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ponsonality

ok, sidney ponson . . . gettin' used to the idea. baseball think factory's item on the signing is headlined "cardinals sign sir lush-a-lot" . . . szymborski adds, "Personally, I think Ponson's arm is shot, but I guess it's worth a flyer since the Cardinals won't have to pay much for him."

having looked at some recent history, i'm inclined to agree. i did a quick look at similar reclamation projects the cards have taken on in recent years -- surprisingly high number on'm. and the results have been surprisingly good.

i limited this brief survey to guys whose performance (cumulative) for the two previous seasons fell at or below replacement level. in one case, circumstance (the death of darryl kile) forced them to activate an idled has-been hurler (andy benes); another guy (sterling hitchcock) was a stretch-run acquisition made out of desperation. here are the last-chance pickups, and their stats from the two years prior to their appearance in the cards' rotation:

age ip w-l era whip
kile 98-99 31 421 21-30 5.84 1.63
benes 01-02 34 273 19-16 5.86 1.56
stephenson 02-03 31 45 2-5 5.40 1.62
j hamilton 02-03 32 264 10-20 5.62 1.60
hitchcock 02-03 32 89 2-5 5.46 1.65
ponson 04-05 29 346 18-26 5.64 1.62

and here's how those guys fared, cumulatively, for the cards in the year of acquisition:

ip w-l era whip
541 37-27 3.93 1.26

the lion's share of the credit for this fine record accrues to darryl kile, who went 20-9 in 232 innings the year st louis acquired him. he's a bit of a special case, insofar as he was recovering not from injury or age but rather from coors field; other pitchers, once released from that penitentiary, have achieved similar improvements (andy ashby, john thomson, mike hampton to name a few). but andy benes also pitched very well, as did sterling hitchcock -- 5-1, 3.79 era in 38 innings for a team that desperately needed reliable starts. indeed, the only outright failure was joey hamilton, who was cut during spring training and never pitched an inning for the cards. the worst performance was turned in by garrett stephenson, who went 7-13 with a 4.59 era and a 1.30 whip. if st louis got that same output from ponson as a #5, they'd have to be thrilled -- and with the 2006 bullpen likely to be better than the '03 disaster, those same era / whip numbers might translate into a 9-11 or 10-10 record. of course, the 03 team could hit better than the 06 one will, so maybe it's a wash. . .

bottom line is that the benchmarks provided by recent history are encouraging. there is reason to believe that ponson will prove to be a bargain, contributing a bunch of league-averagish innings at the very least. for whatever it's worth, szymborski's ZIPS projects him to an 11-12 record, 4.57 era, 1.38 whip.

Update [2005-12-21 14:12:21 by lboros]: the contract calls for a $1m base and $1.5m in incentives based mainly on starts/innings. so if he meets the ZIPS projection above, he'd be paid $2.5m . . . makes the "bargain" threshold a tad more difficult to meet.

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now that we have ponson...
we might as well sign another jail bird in ugueth urbina, who slaughtered some dudes with machettes(i dont know if that is how you spell it but you get the point), i also didnt know that ponson went to jail for 11 days for punching the judge on the beach
bring home a championship to STL

by cards4ever on Dec 21, 2005 2:28 PM EST reply actions  

I'm thinking
the 1 million base is not too bad. It's not a "true" bargain, but if he doesn't work out it still won't matter. I was thinking he'd go for about 700K, but 300K more is chickenfeed really. And if he earns those incentives, hey, the experiment will be a rousing success. If he turns into a 5th starter/12-game winner/innings eater, 1 million will look like a "true" bargain. If not, 1 million and 1 year is not the end of the world. All in all, this move is not something to get too worked-up over either way.  

by rockin redbird on Dec 21, 2005 2:29 PM EST reply actions  

Dear lord,
If you're going to spend a million a year on a has-been with a criminal record at least make sure he's one that was particularly good in his prime.

by DanUpBaby on Dec 21, 2005 2:32 PM EST reply actions  

I know
what you're saying, Dan...but with the way money is being tossed around these days, you're lucky if 1 million can buy you a has-been criminal. The days of 1 million dollar deals for someone proven to be worthwhile are as dead as Busch II. All 1 million will buy these days is a gamble, and I'm starting to think this is a decent one. You may very well be right, and Walt has just flushed a million down the toilet--my point is that one million down the toilet aint much to cry about anymore.

by rockin redbird on Dec 21, 2005 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

i dont think we need to trade...
for an OF or SP until midseason because there are some real good free agents next year. if these teams players are out of contention we can get them then. i mean this upcoming season may be the best for SP in a while. so i think we sign an eric byrnes, juna encarnacion, or rondell or just trade for a cheap OD like craig monroe and wait for next offseason. here is the list of upcoming free agents for next year:

barry bonds
gary sheffield
carlos lee (i dont think the brew crew has the money for him)
aubrey huff
torii hunter
juan pierre (cubs probly get an extension done w/ him)
cliff floyd
mike cameron
jose guillen
trot nixon
shannon stewart
raul ibanez
randy winn
jermaine dye
dave dellucci

SP:
barry zito
mark mulder
jason schmidt
john smoltz
jon garland
mike mussina
kerry wood
andy pettitte
erik bedard
kelvim escobar
jason marquis
brad radke
john thomson
ted lilly
randy wolf
tim wakefield

bring home a championship to STL

by cards4ever on Dec 21, 2005 2:39 PM EST reply actions  

typos
OD=OF
i put season and i meant offseason
bring home a championship to STL

by cards4ever on Dec 21, 2005 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah
i forgot to type him
bring home a championship to STL

by cards4ever on Dec 22, 2005 1:15 PM EST up reply actions  

willie harris
had 10 SB in 121 abs, that could turn into about 50 SB if he played everyday. if i was walt i would give him a chance and let him start.
bring home a championship to STL

by cards4ever on Dec 21, 2005 2:48 PM EST reply actions  

Yeah, but..
only 19 SB/409 ABs in 2004 and 12 SB/137 ABs in 2003.

by Just Rope Ball on Dec 21, 2005 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

big willie
12 in 137 aint bad though
bring home a championship to STL

by cards4ever on Dec 21, 2005 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Eh
A million dollar Reyes insurance policy.  As long as he doesn't find Paddy O's.

by bellyscratcher on Dec 21, 2005 2:54 PM EST reply actions  

Does
Paddy-O's even exist anymore? I loved that bar.

by rockin redbird on Dec 21, 2005 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

yep
still there...still smells like urine
Cheers, Alex Fritz

by Alxfritz on Dec 21, 2005 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Here's a perspective....
i haven't seen yet.  While I love the consistency inwhich the Cards have mowed down the Central the last couple of years, I gotta admit, this team is about as exciting a group of fellows as I 've seen since I used to watch Lawerence Welk with my grandmother.  MLB in general has become so homogenized that almost any display of personality in the form of uniform, venting frustration, saying something of real consequence to the media has been all but criminalized.  I'm not saying that we need the 1974 Oakland Raiders (or which ever year it was that has given them the reputation that is just know dying away) but for gawdsakes just cause the man is a drinker and perhaps a hair shy of the equator when it comes to brains let's not be so quick to change him.  Not all of the players are going to bring the bible into the clubhouse, they're not all going to be model citizens and some of them are going to get DWI's...I'd personally rather hang out with a guy that somehow ended up punching a judge on a beach in Aruba than sit in Mike Mathany's bible study anyday...but that's just me

by I Watch the Cards at Wrigley on Dec 21, 2005 2:56 PM EST reply actions  

If you're watching at Wrigley
then you understand the importance of character and leadership.  The Cubs over the last 2 years are a shining example of why you should do it the Cards way.

by sdrone on Dec 21, 2005 4:00 PM EST up reply actions  

And the Cards' way...
includes having the following examples of "character and leadership" on the team in the last few years:  (list compiled of guys who had 'issues' in their past before joining the team or who created their own issues while with the team)

Steve Kline
Julian Tavarez
Mike DiFelice
Garrett Stephenson
Brett Tomko
Ron Gant
Ray King
And let's not forget the "baggage" Edmonds arrived with in 2000.

The Cards have some decent leaders recently, but they've also taken in and harbored their share of losers.  Ponson may be one of the largest malcontents of the lot (pun absolutely intended) but I can't agree with you that there is a "Cards way" that excludes guys like him.

by flynn on Dec 21, 2005 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Sure
I agree with your list.  To be added include players that are more rumored to have problems than are documented, but that doesn't change the potential for protlems.  Rick Ankiel has been tied with drug use, as was another starting pitcher who most would rather not mention in respect of the deceased...

And of course, there is always a certain power hitter who was acquired with tell-tale signs of performance enhancing drug use.

Ponson isn't perfect, but give the guy the benefit of the doubt.  If he screws up, they should handle him with zero tolerance.  If that doesn't happen, then I'll be upset.

by Robb on Dec 21, 2005 5:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Where
was Ankiel tied with drug use?  His dad was in jail for dealing, but I don't recal Rick Ankiel being invovled in any drug news.  Are you talking about his dad?

by flynn on Dec 21, 2005 5:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Ankiel
Yes, there was the father connection, but I'm talking about the infamous "they".  Actually, I have multiple friends who bumped into Ankiel at various locations around St. Louis in his early career, and the common thread to these encounters were Ankiel was always either smashed or stoned.  Take that for what it's worth, since you don't know me, and for all I know, the guy is just extremely goofy...

by Robb on Dec 21, 2005 5:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Character
is not what I'm questioning.  Whining, self-centeredness, selfishness are not the personality traits I'm referring to.  I'm talking about individuality, uniqueness, not being your fans child's role model and that being ok...maybe having a darker side that isn't meant for public consumption that you might not want to change (I swear I'm still talking about Sid...really...)

"Why do I have to be an example for your kid? You be an example for your own kid." - Bob Gibson

by I Watch the Cards at Wrigley on Dec 21, 2005 4:14 PM EST reply actions  

Here Here...
I concur wholeheartedly. I really could care less about that stuff. The DUI's aren't smart (I know from experience I won't go into), but hey, many of the old-timers we love so well used to carouse and fight like maniacs--they just lived in a different time and a different world. They, of course, played at high levels while feeding their habits--something Ponson obviously isn't capable of--but all reports posit him as clean and sober for the time being. Regardless, I'm willing to see what he can do once ST starts. If he's crap, he's crap. If he turns out better than expected, hooray. The other stuff is static.  

by rockin redbird on Dec 21, 2005 4:15 PM EST reply actions  

worth the risk
It only costs $40,200 for a full time chaufeur and a breathalizer.  Another good investment for Ponson.

by socalcardsfan on Dec 21, 2005 5:08 PM EST reply actions  

Please donate to the
fat boy reclomation project...they did this before..see kent bottenfield, and Fernando valenzuela..but i think you guys are both right, but you leave one thing out...the cards take these baggage guys, and they turn it around...see edmonds, tavarez(he did ok..cept the broken hand)ron gant..mike d was a card twice, had no issues either time(didnt produce either..when they start acting up they are gone..see Brett Tomko..i think Ponson will be ok, and when he starts to act up after having a decent year they'll let him go

by punchinjudy on Dec 21, 2005 5:15 PM EST reply actions  

Role Models
"Why do I have to be an example for your kid? You be an example for your own kid." - Bob Gibson

Sorry, I disagree.  If you are professional athelete, or a public figure in any form, part of the job is to be a good role model.

Anyway, SP seems like a decent gamble at $1M.  I just hope he can stay sober.  

by Zubin on Dec 21, 2005 9:53 PM EST reply actions  

agree
i definitely agree with gibby, we dont need to rely on athletes to be role models for our kids, if you dont want your kid to see how this person acts, dont take him/her to the games
bring home a championship to STL

by cards4ever on Dec 21, 2005 10:07 PM EST up reply actions  

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