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lohse cannon

by far the most interesting name on jim molony's list of possible non-tender free agents is minnesota's kyle lohse. he went 9-13 with a 1.43 whip and a pretty good era (4.18) by american league standards (about 5 percent better than league average); has made 30+ starts each of the last four years, with an era at or below the league avg in three of those four seasons. his career era of 4.55 translates into about 4.15 in the nat'l league.

with those numbers he wouldn't upgrade the rotation, as folks hoped burnett or vazquez might have done. but he could turn into a solid and affordable place-holder, somebody who wouldn't hurt the rotation but would free up marquis to be traded for an outfielder.

caveats: lohse's k rate has gone down four years in a row, dipping to 4.3 per 9 innings last year; batters have hit .300 against him in each of the last two seasons; and his home run rate (1.1 per 9) isn't so hot either. plus he's said to be easily flustered on the mound, thrown out of whack by bad fielding plays or questionable umpiring calls a la jason marquis. also like marquis, lohse appears to have spent many years stubbornly going for strikeouts and making things more complicated than necessary on the mound. read this from esteemed twins blogger aaron gleeman:

When a struggling pitcher and his pitching coach talk about making changes on the mound, it is usually nothing more than talk. In Kyle Lohse's case, there have definitely been fundamental changes in his approach. Pitching coach Rick Anderson appears to have convinced Lohse to simplify things on the mound, asking him to rely more on his fastball/sinker and slider than he has in the past. . . . . It is increasingly clear that Lohse is transitioning from attempting to be a power pitcher to attempting to be a ground-ball pitcher, ala Carlos Silva. That is, throw strikes, keep things simple by working mostly with your fastball, and let the defense work for you.
you could swap in marquis' name for lohse's without losing a word of truth, no? apparently the adjustments stuck; lohse's 2d-half era was half a run lower than his 1st-half era.

some more things to consider: lohse amassed more pitching win shares than either marquis or matt morris, and his fielding-independent era of 4.59 was better than marquis' (4.93), comparable to jeff suppan's (4.52), and not all that much worse than mark mulder's (4.28). in the american league, lohse's FIP put him in the same class as barry zito (4.39), jarrod washburn (4.39), bronson arroyo (4.48), and teammate brad radke (4.48).

the thing that really intrigues me about this guy is his list of similar pitchers at baseball-reference. number one is chris carpenter; number 6 is jeff suppan. makes you think he might be the type of pitcher who'd thrive under dave duncan's tutelage. supps seems particularly apt for comparison; similar rates of strikeouts and hits allowed, ditto park-adjusted era+s. check out his record through age 27; very comparable to lohse. carpenter also has a similar thru-27 line, but he's a different type of pitcher -- much higher k rates, so the comparison seems less applicable.

if you're an optimist, you might argue that coming to the dh-free national league could shave a quarter- to half-run off lohse's era; the combination of duncan, the cards' defense, and the bullpen might shave off a like amount. in which case he becomes another mulder / suppan / marquis. some data:

era FIP era whip k/9 win sh
(pitch only)
VORP
lohse 4.18 4.59 1.43 4.3 10.5 30.7
suppan 3.57 4.52 1.39 5.3 12.5 28.0
mulder 3.64 4.28 1.38 4.9 13.9 37.6
marquis 4.13 4.93 1.33 4.3 9.2 18.9

lohse made $2.4 million last season and is in his 2d year of arb eligibility. given the market for pitchers, you never know what this guy might go for. if the cards could get him for 2 years / $8m with a third-year option -- about the terms suppan signed for in the 2003-04 off-season -- i would like the deal a lot. but in a market that gives matt morris 3 guaranteed years and $25m, kyle lohse might well get 3 yrs / $18m or so. if that's the case i'd have to say pass.

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should be offered contract...
a snippet on rotoworld indicates lohse will most likely be tendered a contract, but should be available via trade.  i dont think he would cost too much though.  if he could be had for some spare parts and if there is a decent market for marquis then the cards should look into acquiring him.  

by dmb60614 on Dec 19, 2005 3:08 PM EST   0 recs

How?
If you buy lboros' convincing argument that Lohse is very similar to Marquis on many levels than how could Lohse be had for spare parts but Marquis command a decent market?  

by flynn on Dec 19, 2005 3:56 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Or
Why would anyone trade for Marquis when they can get Lohse for free?

by Rob H on Dec 19, 2005 4:15 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

a couple of possibilities
those are good questions, and my answers are speculative.
  1. minnesota's payroll is a lot lower than the cardinals' --- if lohse ends up with a $4m deal via arbitration, the twins would be more likely than the cards to dump the player just so they can be rid of the contract.
  2. wins, baby --- lohse has posted two consecutive 9-13 records (18-26 total), while marquis is 28-21 over the same span. some gms still care about that stuff
  3. head case --- per the post below, lohse's act seems to have worn very thin, even more so than marquis' act in stl. which may make them more highly motivated sellers than stl
  4. random acts of gms --- why would anybody trade mark loretta straight-up for doug mirabelli? why would anyone trade brad wilkerson @ $3m a year for fonzie soriano @ $10m?
you guys make total sense --- maybe more sense than real-life baseball does. i can't dispute your logic, but i can still imagine that lohse will end up being a cheaper date than marquis.

by lboros on Dec 19, 2005 5:30 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

It COULD happen
I just hope that people haven't fallen in love with the idea of Marquis procuring some (immediate) outfield help. The way LaRussa handled Marquis ran his numbers the wrong direction and probably hurt his trade value pretty badly. I think it'll work out happily in the end, but I wouldn't buy that line if I were an opposing GM.

by Rob H on Dec 19, 2005 5:56 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

hopefully one of two things
either they swing a trade with a dumb gm who likes marquis as an "established 15-win guy,"

or they swing a trade with a smart one who recognizes what you just said about marquis ---- that la russa gave him too much rope last year in july/august in that foolish quest for the 10th win . . . .

i wouldn't expect them to get a star player for jason, but there must be some team out there with an outfield surplus / rotation deficit who will give up a player of the wilkerson / michaels / mora type.

by lboros on Dec 19, 2005 6:22 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

marquis > lohse
i said 'IF lohse could be had for spare parts...'  i dont know if he can, but there exists the possibility because:

*the twins dont seem too enamored with him, and
*i dont necessarily buy the argument that lohse is equal to marquis

since i dont think too highly of lohse (he could end up doing well, but he needs some work) the trade off only works if we can get a good deal out of a package built around marquis but possibly including wainwright/lambert/etc.

by dmb60614 on Dec 19, 2005 7:09 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

THe more pitchers
the more better.   They're great trade bait.

by sdrone on Dec 19, 2005 3:22 PM EST   0 recs

Has anyone heard anything more about Ponson?
I wasn't aware that baltimore will be on the hook for the lions share of his salary for the next two years and whoever signs him can pay the league minimum?  I would think he would be a good Duncan project?  I've also heard he has quit drinking after a 30 day treatment and is attempting to turn over a new leaf.  For the minimum it may not be a bad idea for a back of the rotation type or insurance for injury risk Reyes. Sounds like he fits the Cards philosophy, low risk, high reward and cheap. Any thoughts?  There has to still be a lingering issue of his character if no-one has yet signed  him for the minimum, with the crazy FA pitching market?

by FarCards on Dec 19, 2005 4:21 PM EST   0 recs

Bat Man
Lohse is a huge head case, more so then Marquis. Late last season, Lohse was so angry at Twin's manager Gardenhire he took a bat to the skipper's door, hurting his finger in the process. I think he could be an upgrade from JM, but a lot more of a headache.

 

by erik on Dec 19, 2005 4:25 PM EST   0 recs

Washburn vs. Burnett
Looking at what you know vs. what you think might happen in the next few years, who's a better deal?
  1.  Burnett at 4/$38m
  2.  Washburn at a reported 4/$35m-$40m?

by sdrone on Dec 19, 2005 5:02 PM EST   0 recs

Niether
They will both have solid careers over the next four years, however I don't think they will earn the overpaid money on thier contracts.  JMO.

by FarCards on Dec 19, 2005 5:43 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

nice one Iboros
Yeah I'd take Lohse, and trade Marquis in a heartbeat for Reed.

If the M's are dumb enough to give that kind of contract to Washburn (no contest the Burnett signing is better), surely we can interest them in Marquis.

Also, a guy I keep falling back to as a Duncan project is Tony Armas Jr.  Young  underachiever, four plus pitches.  Should be had for a song.

Now that the trade market has quieted, I have confidence that Jocketty will find a way to upgrade and make the OF younger while keeping his SP relatively the same.

That's what I think he's after with bullpen fortification.

Plus Reed who still has some minor question marks on defense would make the perfect pupil for Edmonds in his last few years.

by demetre on Dec 19, 2005 5:45 PM EST   0 recs

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