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rostermania IV: heretical trade-edmonds idea

just in time for the hot stove, here's a new site, mlbtraderumors.com. motto: "if it's whispered, we hear it."

but the best rumor we've heard all offseason was whispered at bernie's pressbox sunday and quickly escalated into a shouting match: edmonds to the yankees for two young cheap players with upside, robinson cano and chien-ming wang. the yankees value cano so highly they reportedly wouldn't trade him even up for the twins' torii hunter; for what little it's worth, cano's top 10 comps at baseball-reference.com include 3 hall-of-famers.

this rumor smacks of beat-writer boredom sharpened by too many cocktails in the hotel bar at the GM meetings. jocketty is not prone to this type of caution-to-wind deal, nor has he ever dealt away a popular player, let alone a bona fide idol like edmonds. (and per deadspin per On the DL, jed's adoring public doesn't only include baseball fans.) so the entire discussion that ensues is academic -- this deal ain't a-happ'ing.

nor should it, if you consider that edmonds is still a top-echelon producer with both bat and glove, and very reasonably priced. moreover, it's extremely risky to trade from the core of your roster; and moreoverover, an edmonds departure would leave the cardinals with three outfield vacancies to fill. so why am i discussing it at all? because in one respect it's the type of deal the cardinals need to make: ie one that makes them younger and cheaper. so let's just pretend . . . .

for those of you not familiar with the two yanks named in the rumor, cano is a 22-year-old 2bman who finished 2d in this year's rookie-of-year voting. got called up about may 1 and hit .297 / .320 / .458 / .778, but with very poor bb-k numbers (16-68). some SABR data: cano was 22nd among mlb 2bs in win shares with 12 (compare grud'k at 18). he fared better per VORP, finishing 15th at his position at 27 runs above replacement level (compare grud'k at 23). he was the 6th-best rookie position player in all of baseball in this category, about even with chisox rookie 2b tadahito iguchi but 7 years younger. cano's equivalent average was .262, just above league average (compare grud'k at .257, womack v2004 at .264). for a 22-year-old kid at a key defensive position, that's a pretty good season. in two years he'll be delivering .800+ ops for less than $1 million a year.

wang, 25 last year, went 8-5, 4.02 for the yankees in 17 starts, including this one against the cardinals in june. the only player in mlb history named "wang," he is an extreme groundball-type pitcher (2.96 g/f ratio) with excellent control -- a suppan clone? too soon to tell, but based on limited info that's possible. he spent two months on the dl with a shoulder problem but still finished 44th among american league starters in win shares with 7, two fewer than matt morris and jason marquis (excluding hitting-related win shares) -- and in far fewer innings. he was #12 among mlb rookie pitchers in VORP (17.3), again just behind morris (18.9) and marquis (18.8). his #1 comp at baseball-reference is this colorfully named guy.

basically wang replaces marquis with no drop in performance (if healthy), and jason gets dealt for (let's say) brad wilkerson -- there's your new centerfielder. edmonds' salary gets turned into brian giles, who replaces jed's production and plays right. you've now converted edmonds into giles / wang / cano -- you're way ahead on the deal -- and you've added two everyday players under the age of 30. if walt brings back sanders to balance out the lineup righty-lefty, you have an everyday lineup that's at least as potent as last year's and costs just $47.5 million, with a rotation that's likely sufficient and costs just $17 million -- leaving gobs of dollars for bullpen, bench, and rotation reinforcements. look:

2006 ROSTER MATRIX
SCENARIO #5: EDMONDS FOR WANG/CANO

STARTING 8 BENCH ROTATION PEN
molina c
~$600K
taguchi of
$1m
carpenter rhp
$5m
is'hausen rhp
$8.5m
pujols 1b
$14m
palmeiro of
$1m
mulder lhp
$7.5m
looper rhp
$4m
cano 2b
$400K
rodriguez of
$350K
wang rhp
$350K
mota rhp
$3m
rolen 3b
$11m
aurilia if
$1.5m
suppan rhp
$4m
king lhp
$2.5m
eckstein ss
$3.5m
fick c
$600k
an reyes rhp
$320K
thompson rhp
$350K
sanders lf
$3.5m
duncan 1b
Memphis
wainwright rhp
Memphis
flores lhp
~$500k
wilkerson cf
$4.5m
gall 1b-of
Memphis
tomko rhp
$2m
giles rf
$10m
schumaker of
Memphis
ty johnson lhp
Memphis
TOTAL
$47.5m
TOTAL
$4.5m
TOTAL
$17m
TOTAL
$20.8m
OVERALL PAYROLL: $89.8m

quibble all you want with some of these ideas -- i've added aurilia for rolen insurance, and i'm sure bret tomko will be nobody's favorite as a long reliever / emergency starter, but both wang and reyes have balky shoulders and at least one is bound to need downtime. wainwright's down at memphis as a seventh starter and might have some trade value, perhaps in a package w tyler johnson (also at memphis). does this seem like such an awful idea? giles' production (.905 ops in 2005) replaces edmonds' (.918), and the two other outfielders return with .889 (sanders) and.766 (wilkerson) -- the latter figure a career low in an extreme pitcher's park. if w'son returns to his career norms (likely) and cano shows some improvement (also likely), the cards would have .800+ ops hitters in 6 of the 8 lineup slots -- or two more than the great 2004 offense.

as i said, there's absolutely no chance that this trade will happen, nor anything like it; edmonds will be back, for which we will likely give thanks throughout 2006. but he is 35, he's slowing down, and he's in the last year of his contract; if he walks at the end of this year the cards don't have anyone ready to step in for him. there's a case to be made for trading him now, while his value's still high, and distributing the salary savings throughout the roster. could improve the team for 2006, and better position it for sustainable success.

0 recs  |  Comment 12 comments

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IT'S NOT A TERRIBLE IDEA...
AT ALL, ONCE YOU GET OVER THE SHOCK...

HEY;  YOU MAY WANT TO POST AN ARTICLE ON THIS:

http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2005/11/the_2005_quad_l_1.php

LOOK AT NUMBER 10 IN TIMES ON BASE!!!!

WOHOO!!!!!

by TOLAXOR on Nov 14, 2005 5:42 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

DEFENSIVE RATINGS FOR SORIANO AND CANO
W/REGARDS TO THESE LAST TWO SCENARIO'S, I THINK THAT JEFF AND MGL WILL (RIGHTFULLY) KILL THOSE OPTIONS!!!

HERE'S SOME NON-CARDINAL DISCUSSION OF THEIR DEFENSE INDEPENDENT OF UZR OVER AT HARDBALL TIMES:

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/2005-gold-gloves/

Lead Gloves: Mark Loretta (-17), Alfonso Soriano (-27)

Like Erstad, Soriano should be moved to the outfield, but unlike Erstad, it's not because he's good on defense. Year in and year out, Soriano is a butcher at second and its time to stop the horror. He and Michael Young combined for -61 runs in the field! Texas pitchers have to be scared to allow ground balls, which means that they're going to be looking to allow fly balls in a home run park like Arlington....

Dishonorable mention: Nick Green (-15), Robinson Cano (-13), Jorge Cantu (-12)

by TOLAXOR on Nov 14, 2005 9:34 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

a new scenario
During discussions later today, Cashman casually mentions Pavano (teams splitting salary costs) and Walt pulls the trigger on the deal.  With Taguchi at his side (locked up long term), Walt places a call to the Mariners - Mulder, Marquis, King and Wainwright for Ichiro.  They jump.  On Tuesday, Matsui becomes a free agent.  Yes, he'll sign with the Cardinals (the Yankees don't care, they'll get Giles to fill out the outfield, and then add Burnett and Morris to the rotation).  Voila!  It's an All-Japanese Outfield.  The rotation of Carpenter, Pavano, Reyes, Suppan and Wang isn't stellar, but it'll do.  

Japanese television and radio interests respond immediately, hurling huge chunks of cash at DeWitt, his head already spinning with the notion of millions of Asians decked out in Cardinals gear.  MLB does its part, moving the Cardinals-Brewers opening series to the Tokyo Dome.  But then, a harsh winter delays construction on the new stadium and it becomes evident that all April games will need to be moved to another location.  Bud makes the tough decision.  All Cardinal games for April will be moved to Japan.  Its about what's best for baseball.  

Anticipation in Japan reaches a fever pitch as Opening Day approaches.  LaRussa's lineup puts the outfielders in the 1-2-3 slots.  All eyes in the country are watching as Ichiro and Gooch slap singles to the opposite field, and then Godzilla turns on an inside fastball from Ben Sheets, dropping a bomb over the right field wall.  The crowd goes nuts.  The party continues through the month, the Tokyo Dome a sea of red, erupting with every catch and hit from their countrymen.

Finally returning home to open the new stadium the Cardinals have a comfortable lead in the Central Division, having cleaned up on their travel weary opponents.  "Turning Japanese" (the masturbatory anthem by The Vapors) reverberates through the stadium prior to the game.  Then, just as Carpenter approaches the mound, in the radio booth Mike Shannon reaches into the cooler at his feet and pulls out a can of Sapporo.  As he pops the tab, a slow rumbling begins, but it's not just the crowd, the New Madrid fault has awakened....

sorry about the long post      

by twobrdz on Nov 14, 2005 9:55 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

brilliant
twobrdz --- absolutely love it

by lboros on Nov 14, 2005 12:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Defense, defense, defense
I like the idea of younger guys. Heck, love it.   But I could never get used to the idea of a poor defense, especially a poor infield defense.   And especially a poor defensive 2nd baseman playing next to a shortstop whose range and arm could use a bit of help.  Help that Grudz gives us in spades.  

Did Nunez play any games at 2nd during the regular season?  He was a 2nd baseman when he came over, correct?

by sdrone on Nov 14, 2005 10:29 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

TOLAXOR
I LOVE THE JAPANESE SCENARIO....

SPENDING A LITTLE MONEY ON PAUL BYRD OR, GIVEN THE MONEY WE'LL HAVE SAVED BY EXCHANGING JIMMY, MULDER, AND MARQUIS,ETC, WE COULD PICK UP MILLWOOD,AND TRY TO SEND REYES TO TORONTO FOR AARON HILL TO PLAY 2B...

PICK UP TAKATSU AT ML MINIMUM FOR THE BULLPEN...

by TOLAXOR on Nov 14, 2005 10:42 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

MARKETING ALBERT
I GET DIBS ON MARKETING GIANT, BIZARRE LIKENESSES OF ALBERT TO JAPANESE YOUTH...

by TOLAXOR on Nov 14, 2005 10:43 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Palmeiro
Phew! For a second, I thought you were suggesting RAFFY Palmeiro.

I like the trade.  Probably a wash in the short term and a big improvement in the long term. My Yankee-loving officemate doesn't like it. But he's probably smarter than the Boss.

DCGreg

by DCGreg on Nov 14, 2005 10:47 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Contract question
"he is 35, he's slowing down, and he's in the last year of his contract; if he walks at the end of this year the cards don't have anyone ready to step in for him."

According to various web sources, Jed has a $10M option for 2007.  Does the statement above reflect that it's Jed's option to stay, not the team's option to keep him?  Just curious.  Seems to be a considerable factor affecting his trade value and any decision to keep him.

Also, how much would trading Jed, the player who probably has done the most "deferring of salary" in Cardinal history, hurt the organization in terms of the "this is a good place to play" vibe that kept McGwire, Rolen, and Edmonds himself here and led to below-market contracts for Pujols and Carpenter?

by flynn on Nov 14, 2005 3:34 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Not gonna happen - but fascinating nonetheless!
Thanks for this, lb. This scenario (along with the others you've presented thus far) reveals just how difficult a job Walt has this offseason in determining what direction to take the roster, and how best to accomplish it. After winning 100 games the last seasons, it's awfully tempting to make one big signing (Giles/Burnett), stand pat otherwise (e.g., re-sign Sanders, Grudz), and give this current group one last shot to win a Series. On the other hand ... the Edmonds-for-Cano/Wang scenario offers a tantalizing hint of what Walt might be able to do to make us younger, cheaper, and remain competitive long-term -- if he's willing to be daring and creative.

Re: the discussions about Soriano and Cano that we've had the past few days - I'm glad to see we are finally paying attention to 2B. (It's easy to lose sight of 2B while wondering about outfielders, Burnett, and bullpen help.) From what I read, it sounds like the talks w/Grudz aren't going so well, even though he's apparently expressed his desire to remain a Cardinal. (Perhaps the Soriano and Cano rumors are being floated to make Grudz and his agent more amenable to the Cards' terms?)

I'm with sdrone - given how well Eck and Grudz played together last year, I'd hate to see us let Grudz go. (lb has amply demonstrated just how important the DP was to our success last year.) And barring a blockbuster trade such as Jed-Cano deal, there aren't many other good options at 2B. Speaking of which: just what is the story w/Nunez? What do people think about keeping him as the starter at 2B and letting Grudz go?

Finally, re: outfield help in 2007 and beyond -- let's not forget that we have The Great Ankiel rocketing his way up through the minors! Ha! (This one's for you, DanUp!)

by DCRedbird on Nov 14, 2005 3:44 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Cano and Wang...
I am not at all convinced of Cano.  That 4:1 K:BB ratio is a harbinger of bad things.  As for Wang that ground:flyball ratio has me excited.  Still I agree with what someone said yesterday, to give up Edmonds, Cano has to be pretty special and I don't believe he is yet.

by Zubin on Nov 15, 2005 12:28 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

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