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weekend discussion thread III: trade talk

in the last two days the cards have had a player win the cy young award, and they've switched radio announcers for the second time in four years . . . . so naturally the weekend discussion thread is about alfonso soriano and brad wilkerson.

both are being shopped, and both could fill needs in st louis. i'd like to hear thoughts on a) whether the players are worth pursuing under any circumstances, and b) if yes to a, then do you think they are worth the prices (in talent and dollars) forecast here. if they're not worth it, then what price would you pay to bring them here?

earlier this week Brock20 mused about a marquis-for-brad-wilkerson trade. my response at the time: "wilkerson had a mysteriously bad year. the move to rfk stadium seems to have hurt him, but his home/away split wasn't that dramatic --- he actually had a slightly higher ops away from home, thanks to a much higher walk rate. . . . .even in a pretty bad year he had a decent obp (.351) and 60 extra-base hits; he can play centerfield, is only 28 years old. if his obp returns to career norms he'd be an outstanding #2 hitter behind eckstein. he's arbitration-eligible and might command $4-$5 million; they could put him at one corner and sanders at the other and still have $$$ left over for bullpen and/or a decent starting pitcher."

i like this idea -- he's under 30, inexpensive, and has consistently high obps. so let's plug him in -- click his name in the matrix for his stats:

2006 ROSTER MATRIX
SCENARIO #3: MARQUIS FOR WILK'SON

STARTING 8 BENCH ROTATION PEN
molina c
~$600K
taguchi of
$1m
carpenter rhp
$5m
is'hausen rhp
$8.5m
pujols 1b
$14m
luna if
$350K
mulder lhp
$7.5m
seanez rhp
$3m
grud'k 2b
$2.5m
rodriguez of
$320K
morris rhp
$7.5m
king lhp
$2.5m
rolen 3b
$11m
mabry 3b-of
$600K
suppan rhp
$4m
thompson rhp
$350K
eckstein ss
$3.5m
stinnett c
$650k
an reyes rhp
$320K
flores lhp
~$500k
sanders lf
$3.5m
duncan 1b
Memphis
wainwright rhp
Memphis
eldred rhp
$750K
edmonds cf
$9.5m
gall 1b-of
$320K
ty johnson lhp
$320K
wilkerson rf
$4.5m
schumaker of
Memphis
cali lhp
Memphis
TOTAL
$49m
TOTAL
$3m
TOTAL
$24m
TOTAL
$16m
OVERALL PAYROLL: $92m

note who's taking marquis' place in this matrix: good ol' matty mo. also on board is ray king, who according to recent reports may not be going anywhere. the setup role is filled here by rudy seanez; who is expected to re-sign with the padres because he's from california and likes pitching close to home. but the cardinals like him (with good reason), and you never know.

that's one scenario. the other began with fox's ken rosenthal, who thinks the rangers should trade soriano to the cards for marquis, king, and a prospect.

Star-divide

explains rosenthal: "Rather than give Giles a deal for say, three years and $30 million, the Cardinals could sign a cheaper alternative like Jacque Jones, take on Soriano for one year and devote a greater percentage of their resources to pitching. . . . . Marquis and King will earn more than $7 million combined next season; exchanging them for Soriano would result in only a modest increase to the Cardinals' payroll."

the guys at lone star ball think it'd be a swell deal for the rangers. soriano has avoided arbitration each of the last two years, signing for $5.4 mill in 2004 and $7.5 mill last year. he's projected to make about $10 million in 2006. he will be 30 next season.

he was a 30-30 man last year (30 sb, 36 hr) for the 3d time in his career. scored 102, drove in 104, had 91 extra-base hits and slugged .512. all very impressive numbers. but he hit only .268 to tie a career low, and his obp (.309) was his worst since his rookie season. his average has now declined three consecutive years, which means either a) his skills are in decline, or more likely b) he reached the bottom of his range last year and will rebound in 2006.

soriano's an extremely free swinger who has never walked more than 38 times in a season. he was below replacement level away from home: .224 / .265 / .374, for a .639 ops. home ops was 1.011. had a similar, though less extreme, split in 2004 (886 ops home, .735 away), but in 2003, his last year with the yankees, the split was reversed: .917 ops away, only .805 at home. ditto 2002 -- .934 away, .822 at home. his list of comps is not bad: going age by age, he tracks marcus giles at 26 and 27, ken boyer at 28, joe gordon at 29. similar batters thru age 29 include gordon, boyer, larry walker, and jeff kent -- all four of whom won an mvp award.

as rosenthal notes, he'd only require a one-year commitment; if he's a bust, the cardinals can start fresh in 2007. though he's apparently amenable to playing left field, i'm going to follow rosenthal's blueprint and slot him at 2b, with reggie in one outfield slot and gooch/jrod at the other:

2006 ROSTER MATRIX
SCENARIO #4: MARQUIS/KING FOR SORIANO

STARTING 8 BENCH ROTATION PEN
molina c
~$600K
rodriguez of
$320K
carpenter rhp
$5m
is'hausen rhp
$8.5m
pujols 1b
$14m
luna if
$350K
mulder lhp
$7.5m
mota rhp
$2.5m
soriano 2b
$10m
mabry 3b-of
$600K
byrd rhp
$5.5m
hammond lhp
$2m
rolen 3b
$11m
e.y. of
$600K
suppan rhp
$4m
thompson rhp
$350K
eckstein ss
$3.5m
stinnett c
$650k
an reyes rhp
$320K
flores lhp
~$500k
sanders lf
$3.5m
duncan 1b
Memphis
wainwright rhp
Memphis
eldred rhp
$750K
edmonds cf
$9.5m
gall 1b-of
$320K
ty johnson lhp
$320K
taguchi
$1m
schumaker of
Memphis
cali lhp
Memphis
TOTAL
$53m
TOTAL
$2.5m
TOTAL
$22m
TOTAL
$15m
OVERALL PAYROLL: $92.5m

now that i've got all the boxes filled, i really don't think much of this idea. among other flaws, the lineup has seven right-handed hitters; a left-handed bat such as jacques jones would probably have to be swapped in for sanders, and likely cost more. i do sort of fancy the idea of picking up eric young for the bench; he can still get on base, still run, and is the type of veteran reserve la russa loves. but bottom line: $10m is too much for soriano, even in a 1-year deal. giles just makes loads more sense if they can get him at the right price.

0 recs  |  Comment 21 comments

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with Wilke
you could still spend $$ on a SP (really, isn't it time for MaMo to head to greener pastures?). His periphrials this year were more on line the lines of his 03, indictating a slump more than a decline...nevertheless, an advantage going into arbitration. I know from DC media that he played through injury (jeez he should of been a Card in 05), minor, bum shoulder late in the season. He's way better than Jacque Jones and cheaper.

by VanRam on Nov 12, 2005 10:31 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

wilkerson
give me wilkerson if he can get his ops back up to .800+, which at the new busch in a winning atmosphere i think he could. Certainly a more plausible option $ wise then Giles and talent wise then J Jones

pass on soriano.

by erik on Nov 12, 2005 10:49 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Soriano:
too much $$ and a defensive liability at 2B, plus he's been unwilling, in the past, to move to the outfield. Yes, he has power, but I'd rather have a 5-12 HR guy at second who can field.
Wilkerson makes a lot of sense, if for no other reason, than he can play all of the OF positions; would be a very nice #2 hitter, allowing Edmonds to move back to the 4 or 5 hole, where he has hit better historically. Oh yeah, then there's the money issue. He'd be a hell of a lot cheaper.

by cardsrul on Nov 12, 2005 12:44 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

So-ri-a-NOOOOOOO!!!!
I'm with erik and cardsrul here -- no, no, a thousand times no on Soriano. Ignore those tantalizing offensive stats; the guy's an absolute butcher at 2B -- and if we're just gonna move him to the outfield, I'd rather spend that $$ on Giles, who won't give you the gaudy HR/SB figures of Soriano but at least has some plate discipline.

Wilkerson is a solid Plan B if Giles doesn't happen. I'd have to think the Nats could get excited about having Marquis -- he could be pretty damn good pitching half his games in RFK. If we're going to trade Marquis (something I'm still not unsure about) for an OF, better Wilkerson than Mench.

by DCRedbird on Nov 14, 2005 2:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Rosenthal....
I know its a typical quick hit piece, short blubs about different teams, but that piece really left me thinking that most of those trades were one sided.  I'm sorry but Abreu for Clement and Nixon and a prospect?  That's all that would take?  The Phillies would be absolutely nuts to take that offer.  

Back to the Cards, I don't foresee this trade happening at all.  Maybe I'm bias, but I think the Rangers can get a better deal for Soriano, who despite his defensive short comings (which I think can be minimialized through practice and coaching) is one of the legit 40-40 guys in the league.  He's young, talented, and even if you are renting him for a short time, should command a hefty dowry.  

by Brock20 on Nov 12, 2005 1:54 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

That's another
reason not to go after Soriano. Jock has already mortgaged the future of the franchise through previous trades, so the only thing left is to trade someone from the 25-man. The Rangers will most likely be asking too much for him, so I don't see it happening, either.

by cardsrul on Nov 12, 2005 3:01 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Giles
Word is that the Dodgers will present an informal offer today.

by Zubin on Nov 12, 2005 8:14 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Here's one
I spent a couple hours arguing against (actually laughing at) tonight in my favorite watering hole. Now that's it's past 5am, there seems to be some logic to it. Y'all do me a favor and tell me I'm too wasted to think, but this guy argued that... (wait for it...)... Corey Patterson might be a smart OF trade. Now, as I said, I laughed at this guy (a Cards fan who was in town for a function at the university) because I watched KKKorey--as the Flubfans so affectionately dubbed him due to his boss strikeout rate--look like an absolute idiot at the plate all last year. The Chicago fans and press were relentless. Every time he failed it was NEWS that proved their prejudice. As one who endures almost as many Flub games a year as he enjoys Redbird games, I can attest to their hatred for this guy. Patterson, in no way, has lived up to the hype surrounding him. He is, in a sense, their Rick Ankiel. The guy could be great; you just can't trust him to perform. At all. At least not right now. Herein lies the rub. He has something he has shown little interest in cultivating yet--true potential for greatness. But is he the lazyass lost cause the Flubs make him out to be? Or is there something inferior about the Flubs' coaching staff and manager? Could the Cardinals do something with this piece of meat? I have been convinced at the moment that it may possible. Upon many rounds of Jameson shots I proclaim that Corey Patterson may or may not be a good move for Walt to consider. He will cheap, he will be dying to prove he's not the lost cause he's been crowned, and he just may react well to better coaching, the much more benevolent fans and media, and TLR. I dunno...an interesting thought I hadn't considered. It would free up cash for sure, but would either pay off in spades or nada, depending on what the staff could do with him and what he may or may not bring to the field. What do yas think?

by rockin redbird on Nov 13, 2005 6:25 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

he could be the new
lou brock . . . . . my only hesitation to this would be that the cubs are going to price him on his potential, as opposed to his actual performance. they'd probably want reyes for him . . .  

by lboros on Nov 13, 2005 8:34 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Or is he the next Kerry Robinson.....
That is his ratio of attitude to talent is about ten to one.  I have a good friend who is a Cubs fan, the most easy going, relaxed, peaceful man I know.  Throw all kind of stuff about the Cubs or whatever and he just laughs it off.  We were watching a game once and I called Corey "Jerome Walton" and he about flipped out. Even Corey's antics got to my friend the pacfist.  

by Brock20 on Nov 13, 2005 8:59 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh yeah...
their collective blood pressure explodes at the very mention of his name (Korey The Klown is another favored moniker)--but that could be a huge part of the problem. He knows he's soundly hated and it affects his performance to the degree that he will never be of use to them. Still, maybe elsewhere he could blossom. We've seen it before (most famously with the above-mentioned Lou Brock). If LB is right and the price is Reyes or the like, then forget it. But if he could be had for a song (as was Brock), then he might be worth a gamble...

just sayin'  

by rockin redbird on Nov 13, 2005 1:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Corey. Lord.
I live in Chicagoland and catch a lot of Cubs games on TV.

The only thing Corey has going for him is speed.  He bobbles balls in the outfield and is casual about his hand motion when catching them.  His head is NEVER in the game.  A friend and I tried to see if he led the league in getting picked off 1st, but that stat isn't tracked - it's tracked as "caught stealing", I believe.  

Worst of all (though DUsty Baker is a TERRIBLE fundamentals coach) I'm not sure Corey is coachable.   It's obvious to everyone that Corey needs to play more and should play winter ball.  His reaction?  Simply "no."  His reaction when told to take the first pitch?  "No."

In years past, I'd always laugh when Sosa came up with men on base and cheer for a strikeout.   My Cub fan friends hate that.  This year?  I rooted for Corey.  

by sdrone on Nov 13, 2005 3:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

A song?
Just to clarify, Lou Brock was NOT "had for a song."  Ernie Broglio was an established major leaguer coming off an 18-8 year in 1963, was, at 28, entering his pitching prime, and had won 20 games for the Cards in 1960.  At the time, the Cards were ridiculed for the trade and Chicago newpapers called it one of the best the Cubs had ever made.  (and let's not forget the Cards also included Bobby Shantz in the deal, ERA of 2.61 and a K/BB ratio of 70/17.)  

The ultimate outcome of the trade obviously favored the Cards because they got the best years of BOTH Brock and Broglio while the Cubs got the worst years of both.  But, to be clear, Lou Brock was not "had for a song" when the trade was made.

by flynn on Nov 14, 2005 10:44 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Speaking of trades...
Bernie is saying that there is a rumor that the Cards are talking to the Yankees regarding a trade of Edmonds for Robinson Cano and Chien-Ming Wang.  I don't know enough about either of those guys to judge whether or not this is a good idea or not, but the money would be pretty nice--we could make a run at Giles and Burnett with that kind of cash bieng freed up.

by Valatan on Nov 13, 2005 11:00 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Edmonds
Hmm, I tire of slim-jim antics as much as anyone, but where else are you going to find a gold-glove center feilder who can smack 20 homeruns (and perhaps as many as forty) a year?  Two years ago he was the MVP of the Cardinals and even this year despite the 0.26X batting average you could make a case that he was the MVP again.  I think Edmonds will "bounce back" this coming year and despite his age, I don't see him slowing down much.  I guess I'd hate to see the Cards lose a (possible) future HOFer.  

I looked up Cano on B-R.  His line is .297/.320/.458.  Not bad except the OBP is awfully low for a .297 hitter.  He walked only 16 times compared to 68 strike outs.  He is Dominican and he was born October 22nd, 1982.  (Isn't that the day the Cards won their last WS?  Maybe that's a good omen?)

Chien-Ming Wang is a 25 year old Taiwanese pitcher.  He went 8-5 with a 4.02 ERA, 42 ks, 32 BBs in 116 innings, WHIP= 1.25, BAA = .252

Anyway, if you do that deal So becomes our everyday CF, (and hits #2 I assume).  But we need a big left-handed bat, so you figure that the Cards sign Giles to play right and hit #4.  Giles eats up at least as much payroll as Edmonds did, but we save $ with a cheaper and younger alternative to Grudz at 2B.  We also have some extra starting pitching allowing us to trade at least one and maybe two pitchers for some OF help or perferabley some decent prospects.

I guess it could work, but Cano better be pretty good to give up Emonds.

by Zubin on Nov 13, 2005 1:12 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Man,
this is a tough one for me. Jed seems to be in decline, but I hope you're right and we'll see him bounce back in 06. He's one of those players that I love so much, but sometimes ya gotta bite the bullet. I really want to see him finish his career as a Cardinal; however, if he doesn't bounce back, well, the cold hard fact of that may preclude any well-wishing. I tend to agree with Cardsrul--everybody but Albie and Carp is fair game--but damn, let's just hope it doesn't come to that. I say Jed should get at least one more year before we start thinking about his funeral as a Bird. And if we're gonna trade him, it should be for someone more special than Cano.

by rockin redbird on Nov 13, 2005 2:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and...
doesn't he have a no-trade clause anyway?

by rockin redbird on Nov 13, 2005 4:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It seems Edmonds really likes it in St. Louis,
so if he does have a no-trade clause, he could very well nix any deal.
matty fred is a weblog.

by matty fred on Nov 13, 2005 7:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

word is
is that it's a no trade clause to 23 teams of his choice, submitted once per year.  I guess the idea is that the Yankees aren't one of the teams listed.

by Valatan on Nov 13, 2005 7:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i wouldn't necessarily be opposed
to trading JEd, but if we do, we have to have someone else in the OF besides f@#%in' Corey Patterson. Patterson's fine to take a flyer on if you get him for as a cheap FA or,in this case, a C prospect...and nothing more

by VanRam on Nov 13, 2005 8:37 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I still
haven't forgiven Whitey for trading Simba away, so if Jock pulls the trigger on an Edmonds trade, he'll go to the top of my "I'll have a grudge against you till the day I die" list, even if it does free up some $$$. I just hope belly hasn't seen this yet...

by cardsrul on Nov 14, 2005 11:15 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

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